Creating Your Ideal Workspace - ProductivityCast

015 Creating Your Ideal Workspace – ProductivityCast

Where do you work best? And for what type of work (focused thinking work, diffuse thinking work, mundane/ministerial tasks, big projects that require multiple modalities, or specialized handcrafting) do you do best in what environment? Creating your ideal workspace is important to being able to be and stay productive. In this cast, the ProductivityCast team discusses the factors and tools to get and sustain productivity in your workspace.

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In this Cast

Augusto Pinaud

Francis Wade

Art Gelwicks

Show Notes

Resources we mention, including links to them will be provided here. Please listen to the episode for context.

The Zeigarnik Effect

Digital Bankruptcy

Inbox Zero

Unclutterer

80/20 Pareto Principle

Raw Text Transcript

Raw, unedited and machine-produced text transcript so there may be substantial errors, but you can search for specific points in the episode to jump to, or to reference back to at a later date and time, by keywords or key phrases. The time coding is h:mm:ss.ms to h:mm:ss.ms (e.g., 0:00:00.000,0:00:04.000 starts at 0.00 seconds and ends at 4 seconds in the cast’s audio).

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are you ready to manage your work and

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personal world better to live a more

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fulfilling productive life then you’ve

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come to the right place

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welcome to productivity cast the weekly

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show about all things productivity here

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are your hosts Ray Sidney-Smith and

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Augusto Pinaud good morning everybody and

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welcome to productivity cast the weekly

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show about all things productivity today

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we have Francis Wade and Art Gelwicks

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with us and with me Augusto Pinaud

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and Ray is somewhere in the world

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missing hopefully having fun or sleeping

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according to the recording time we have

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today we are going to be talking about

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creating your ideal workspace it is

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important to understand what are the

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needs of your work-place mostly or the

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workspace mostly because you know will

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allows you to establish higher levels of

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productivity in that space or if you are

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the lucky kind who can have it anywhere

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anywhere so today we would like to split

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the show in three parts the first part

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will be where do we work best the second

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part were the factors for that

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and finally the effects on having that

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ideal workspace and what you should if

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you should have ownership on it or not

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so how are you guys this morning

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I’m fine a bang I’m doing well it’s a

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kind of drizzly day here right now but

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you know mountain about mmm working

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weird work needs to be done so I’m doing

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well how about you been pretty good

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doing pretty good and joined a really

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nice day out of the window so I’m

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working on the home office today and

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record in actually from the home office

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let’s start this conversation where did

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you work best my first thought was that

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it worked best in my my office and

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ideally my office is a quiet spot quiet

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place no interruptions there’s no phones

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and pings and knocks and

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no interruptions from the outside

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environment but as I started to think

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about it some more it’s it’s not for the

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work that requires the quiet that I need

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to get it done then my office is the

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best place but what about when I’m

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giving a speech I can’t say that’s the

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best place to give a speech is in my

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office you know be kind of crazy to say

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that so it it’s a tricky question

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because I started to think that maybe

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it’s not as simple as it seems that

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there is in order for me to give my best

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speech for example it’s not the case

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that I have to be in my office it’s the

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case that I have to be in uninterrupted

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and and I can have an environment in

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which I can be focused so I then pivot

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away from it having anything to do with

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geography and that then I started to

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think okay it has something to do with

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being able to focus for a particular

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level of intensity for as long as it

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takes and that didn’t seem to be boned

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by geography it’s it’s more a function

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of the environment as I’m able to create

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it I think that that it’s not really jog

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rafi for me it’s the environment as I

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can create it yeah I gotta agree with

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you on that one Francis for me a lot of

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my work takes me to client locations or

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various places and being able to create

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a work space wherever I am is critical

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for me to be able to be productive so

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when I look at things such as you know

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how am I going to work best my

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headphones are probably one of the

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biggest contributors to that to be able

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to plug in to a sound source put in my

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headphones block out the outside sound

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and drop into a flow state to be able to

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get work done that’s what makes or

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breaks it for me now saying that I did

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spend four years working directly from a

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home office and that was it was very

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nice to have that isolated environment

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you knew you had dedicated focus for

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extended periods of time but I don’t

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think that that decrese how productive

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someone will be you really have to find

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a way that you can put your mind in the

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right operating state regardless of the

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because if the environment is what’s

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preventing you from being productive you

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can either change the environment which

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unfortunately is not an option for many

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people or you can go through and you can

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just find a way to create your own

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little bubble so that’s what I do I

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carried the gear that I need in my bag

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and I can sit down and create a bubble

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somewhere and get work done you know it

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is interesting you put it that way I if

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I look back to my work experienced there

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has been trickier up to this point at

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least three really clear work styles you

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know when I start that it was really

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office bound and it was trying to make

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that space productive and been able to

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get in the zone between you know that

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particular space there is a second stage

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where I was what we will call a road

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warrior and I was traveling 250,000

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miles per year where I was pretty much

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in that situation you are describing you

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know where I needed to be productive

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anywhere didn’t matter it was an

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airplane you know or a cramped airplane

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or a hotel room or looking at the ocean

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close to a client side and then it it’s

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we can talk about that the more recent

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stage and where I am where I have now

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the flexibility to work anywhere I can

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be here my home office I can actually be

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in the office or I can be on a client

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side and the problem is still the same

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you still need to find a way to identify

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what kind of work you are going to do

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and how to get in the zone for that kind

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of work in my particular case it depends

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what I’m trying to accomplish and what

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is the work I’m going to do it is not

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the same kind of rituals or things that

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I need even that I carry them all with

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me if what I’m going to do is conduct

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business or make sales calls or work

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with customers

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than if I’m what I’m going to do is been

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writing so it changed what kind of

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environment I need so for example if I

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am going to do client work client work

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is something I like to do with standing

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out and I have a stand up desk and I

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even have a camera TripIt that I trick

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with a table on top so that way is the

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most portable thing I can take with me

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and that will give me an extend of desk

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almost anywhere why if I am working with

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customers I enjoy that it’s important

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for me that is standing up feature if I

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am going to write I like to be almost

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sitting lay down legs up in a really

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comfortable position that’s what writing

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long or for a long time requires me to

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have some environment and the other

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thing that required for me as an

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environment is music again if I’m going

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to be writing I want music I need to

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block myself out out of that noise and

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if I’m thinking it can be a standing up

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or can be sitting down but it also

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required music it just require a

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different kind of music

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you know if I’m writing I tend to listen

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to rock in Spanish and if I’m thinking

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it tend to be classical music because I

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I don’t want the words of the music

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distracting me in any way so it need to

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be classical or instrumental where the

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brain can block the sound surrounding me

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but not get me distracted with what that

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this song is telling or not telling it’s

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interesting you mentioned how music fits

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into your productivity scheme because I

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know a lot of people that’s the way the

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operator it depends on what I’m trying

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to accomplish I often turn on podcasts

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and just let podcasts through my

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headphones beating to them if anything

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of interest pops up I can pause for a

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second and then go back to what I was

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doing and not lose that productive flow

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is per se but it’s something out of it

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but if it’s something that I really need

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to be it’s a creative endeavor if I’m

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writing if I’m doing a

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presentation if I’m working on some

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graphic work anything along that line

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then yeah I’ve got particular playlists

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that I’ll pop into my headphones and

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that there’s no verbal in most

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tremendous so I can truly just on the

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voice inside my head talking to myself

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getting things get worked through so

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that I can keep my productivity flow at

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a maximum level but that’s taken a long

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time to refine it’s become very easy to

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it’s easy to get into things and get

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distracted because they’re different

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there’s I’ve heard a couple of

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productivity experts who say that one of

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the best things to do is to pick a song

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and just put it on repeat not multiple

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songs just one and just let it keep

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repeating and repeating and it basically

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becomes white noise honestly that would

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drive me bonkers after a little while

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but to each their own

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I believe me only one song to repeat it

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I think it will drive me nuts like you

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and I don’t think it is a really

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particular style that I listened it is

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basically two different artists but I

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think I need the variety of the

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different songs to be able to make it

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happen I’m like the opposite I I don’t I

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don’t touch music at all it’s not

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because I don’t like music I’m not much

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of a musical file but it’s it’s just

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that it doesn’t do much for me if I have

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it it’s okay if I don’t have it it’s

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that’s okay too but I don’t I don’t like

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fussing with the audio I guess I don’t

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like the the shuffling of the songs and

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they’re having to find a song or having

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to play the song or having to to set it

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up or download it I don’t for whatever

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reason I don’t like a whole lot of

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fussing around with mp3s and different

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kinds of music but I do require a

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certain kind of that white noise isn’t

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bad I don’t find that I have to use it a

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lot meaning because of where I live if

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you can listen in the background you can

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actually hear a little bit of white

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noise because I have some birds you

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might be able to hear them tweeting in

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the background so they’re there it’s

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sort of a non-stop tweeting sound in the

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background and maybe that’s that’s

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enough of the white noise I actually

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need Oh need any more than that just

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enough to sort of cover

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other zones like dogs barking and that

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kind of thing but I find that it doesn’t

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it doesn’t trouble me what what roles my

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losses would be a phone ringing or knock

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or a conversation that I that takes me

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also the floor stage that kind of noise

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is the kind that I’m sort of working

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against even if I’m giving a speech

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having a distracting noise that I need

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to account for in some way like a

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whistle all of a sudden in the middle of

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my speech by someone in a different room

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that I find distracting it so anything

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that that doesn’t sort of fall into the

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white noise kind of kind of genre I

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guess or anything that jars me or

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requires some cognitive attention um

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that I don’t want I just want it to be

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really I guess simple simple consistent

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and the same and I don’t actually have

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to do anything about it

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I guess I’m lazy that way it’s an

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interesting spin on this because when we

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think about workspaces and in the

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environments that we get caught up in a

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lot of people in the corporate space

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have to work in open floor plan

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environments because they were so

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popular and still are to some degree and

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being able to create a headspace in that

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environment can be even that much harder

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because you’ve got the visual

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distractions of people moving around you

0:12:24.089,0:12:27.960
you have audio distractions that people

0:12:26.040,0:12:30.300
make noise around you and in many

0:12:27.960,0:12:31.830
countries many places like the client

0:12:30.300,0:12:34.920
I’m working at now they have created

0:12:31.830,0:12:36.750
kind of isolation areas spread out all

0:12:34.920,0:12:39.180
over the place that you can go and grab

0:12:36.750,0:12:42.000
basically a one person conference room

0:12:39.180,0:12:44.940
to work in for a period of time but yeah

0:12:42.000,0:12:47.400
the audio piece I think in especially

0:12:44.940,0:12:49.500
like in the open floor plan environments

0:12:47.400,0:12:51.780
you see more headphones than you see

0:12:49.500,0:12:54.360
heads at times it’s just amazing how

0:12:51.780,0:12:55.980
people have to do that isolation and I

0:12:54.360,0:12:58.230
always wondered what everybody was

0:12:55.980,0:13:00.270
listening to so it’s it’s interesting to

0:12:58.230,0:13:04.500
hear this and hear how we each have our

0:13:00.270,0:13:08.700
own best sound that works for us you

0:13:04.500,0:13:11.490
know as a person who used to fly a lot I

0:13:08.700,0:13:15.060
learned at that time that a lot of the

0:13:11.490,0:13:17.640
frequent fliers I put the headphones not

0:13:15.060,0:13:20.220
necessarily for the noise or for the

0:13:17.640,0:13:20.700
sound or for the music but as a clue of

0:13:20.220,0:13:24.090
the

0:13:20.700,0:13:26.730
don’t interrupt me and my experience in

0:13:24.090,0:13:30.720
open floor plans especially when I go

0:13:26.730,0:13:34.320
and visit customers is exactly that it’s

0:13:30.720,0:13:35.880
tend to be more on the lines of getting

0:13:34.320,0:13:38.820
the headphones so you don’t get

0:13:35.880,0:13:41.490
interrupted then getting the headphones

0:13:38.820,0:13:43.980
because you are necessarily listen some

0:13:41.490,0:13:46.170
kind of music but since we’re in this

0:13:43.980,0:13:49.020
and I think it’s a good time to change

0:13:46.170,0:13:50.880
to so what we talked about environmental

0:13:49.020,0:13:53.070
factors you know how about the

0:13:50.880,0:13:55.410
ergonomics the colors you know the

0:13:53.070,0:13:57.960
collaborative versus those individual

0:13:55.410,0:14:01.260
spaces you know the tools

0:13:57.960,0:14:04.470
how about clutter how about clear spaces

0:14:01.260,0:14:07.830
distraction and again stand-up desk and

0:14:04.470,0:14:09.900
as I said I love my stand-up desk for

0:14:07.830,0:14:12.360
certain work you know anything that

0:14:09.900,0:14:14.280
involve interacting with other human

0:14:12.360,0:14:17.220
beings I think there is nothing better

0:14:14.280,0:14:19.590
than standing up actually if I do short

0:14:17.220,0:14:21.240
meanings I love them when people is

0:14:19.590,0:14:24.750
willing to do standing up meanings

0:14:21.240,0:14:26.460
because they seem to me much more

0:14:24.750,0:14:29.400
focused than when you’re comfortable

0:14:26.460,0:14:30.900
sitting in the conference room I’ve

0:14:29.400,0:14:32.820
experimented a little bit with stand-up

0:14:30.900,0:14:36.900
stand-up meetings and I found that they

0:14:32.820,0:14:39.330
work awesomely I really get to be able

0:14:36.900,0:14:42.870
to be around a client long enough to

0:14:39.330,0:14:45.630
suggest that method and they’ve never

0:14:42.870,0:14:48.630
they don’t none of my clients use it on

0:14:45.630,0:14:50.030
a regular basis so it’s not a part of

0:14:48.630,0:14:53.760
their philosophy or anything

0:14:50.030,0:14:57.200
unfortunately I would change that if I

0:14:53.760,0:14:59.910
could with control over it but um I I

0:14:57.200,0:15:02.490
much prefer outside like I like to move

0:14:59.910,0:15:06.120
around I like to when I’m on the phone

0:15:02.490,0:15:08.880
I’m always walking with the phone I’m

0:15:06.120,0:15:11.940
sitting on my desk but if I could walk

0:15:08.880,0:15:14.550
around then and beyond on on our call I

0:15:11.940,0:15:17.610
would I just I just don’t have the the

0:15:14.550,0:15:19.260
tools to be able to do that with so in

0:15:17.610,0:15:22.140
terms of ergonomics I prefer to stand

0:15:19.260,0:15:23.550
one of the best setups I ever had was to

0:15:22.140,0:15:26.730
have two different kinds of chairs

0:15:23.550,0:15:28.320
um if you guys remember those it was a

0:15:26.730,0:15:31.380
those chairs that came up for a while

0:15:28.320,0:15:33.510
which wish you would Neela it would to

0:15:31.380,0:15:34.440
save the pressure on your back so they

0:15:33.510,0:15:36.120
would they would

0:15:34.440,0:15:39.300
have this d-pad in front and then you

0:15:36.120,0:15:40.830
get into it and basically lean forward

0:15:39.300,0:15:43.350
and they would have done they have no

0:15:40.830,0:15:45.600
back rest so I had a chair like that and

0:15:43.350,0:15:47.580
I had a regular conference room chair

0:15:45.600,0:15:50.310
and I would switch between the two and

0:15:47.580,0:15:52.500
man I thought that was that was the that

0:15:50.310,0:15:55.470
was a stuffed man that was the best I’m

0:15:52.500,0:15:59.100
so sorry I actually gave away that that

0:15:55.470,0:16:01.440
that kneeling chair when I left when I

0:15:59.100,0:16:02.850
left the US and came to Jamaica thinking

0:16:01.440,0:16:04.590
that I wouldn’t I wouldn’t use it or I

0:16:02.850,0:16:06.720
didn’t want it that was a mistake I

0:16:04.590,0:16:09.870
should have kept that big cuz I miss it

0:16:06.720,0:16:11.400
and I really missed the the way I used

0:16:09.870,0:16:13.500
to sit in it that half and being able to

0:16:11.400,0:16:16.590
shift my body position between the two I

0:16:13.500,0:16:18.180
thought was really really useful but

0:16:16.590,0:16:21.660
apart from that I don’t pay a whole lot

0:16:18.180,0:16:23.520
of attention to her gonna mix it’s not a

0:16:21.660,0:16:26.370
good thing because I actually have some

0:16:23.520,0:16:28.670
repetitive stress injury in from using

0:16:26.370,0:16:31.260
the move our own mouths I can’t use a

0:16:28.670,0:16:34.500
regular mouse for too long I have to use

0:16:31.260,0:16:36.800
a trackpad because if I my wrist starts

0:16:34.500,0:16:39.600
moving around too much it starts to hurt

0:16:36.800,0:16:42.720
so I have to use a track a trackpad a

0:16:39.600,0:16:44.490
trackball rather a little ball that you

0:16:42.720,0:16:46.920
manipulate with your finger so I should

0:16:44.490,0:16:50.880
be paying more attention to it but well

0:16:46.920,0:16:54.450
one of these things again yeah I use

0:16:50.880,0:16:56.730
standing desks fairly frequently this

0:16:54.450,0:16:59.640
particular client I met they have in

0:16:56.730,0:17:02.190
many places scrum areas for their teams

0:16:59.640,0:17:04.829
to meet for stand-up sessions about 10

0:17:02.190,0:17:07.170
to 15 minutes each and those desks that

0:17:04.829,0:17:09.000
they meet at are actually motorized so

0:17:07.170,0:17:11.550
they can change the height of the desk

0:17:09.000,0:17:14.760
very nice very expensive but very nice

0:17:11.550,0:17:17.670
at home I’ve used standing desks for

0:17:14.760,0:17:19.140
doing presentations often my standing

0:17:17.670,0:17:20.970
desks have been nothing more than a

0:17:19.140,0:17:22.650
couple of cardboard boxes my laptop

0:17:20.970,0:17:26.100
sitting on top of them what whatever

0:17:22.650,0:17:27.209
comes into play as for chairs chairs can

0:17:26.100,0:17:28.500
be a big deal

0:17:27.209,0:17:30.690
I mean that’s we should never

0:17:28.500,0:17:34.140
underestimate the the value of a good

0:17:30.690,0:17:35.940
chair first I’ve tried that I remember

0:17:34.140,0:17:37.620
trying that kind of kneeling chair that

0:17:35.940,0:17:40.410
you’re talking about back in the day and

0:17:37.620,0:17:42.030
I did it until I fell out of it and at

0:17:40.410,0:17:44.790
that point I’m like I need something a

0:17:42.030,0:17:47.350
little different for me I’ve seen got

0:17:44.790,0:17:50.140
friends who use the

0:17:47.350,0:17:51.220
or exercise balls instead of sitting in

0:17:50.140,0:17:53.260
a chair they actually sit on the

0:17:51.220,0:17:56.080
exercise ball and that’s their way of

0:17:53.260,0:17:58.360
being able to keep some sort of core

0:17:56.080,0:18:01.929
strength and mobility into it

0:17:58.360,0:18:04.660
but it really comes down to if you’re

0:18:01.929,0:18:06.700
organ are correct and I am I am by no

0:18:04.660,0:18:09.070
means an ergonomic expert this is just a

0:18:06.700,0:18:11.679
supposition but if your organ Onix are

0:18:09.070,0:18:14.200
correct you should not notice them if

0:18:11.679,0:18:15.490
you are noticing that something’s not

0:18:14.200,0:18:17.740
right there’s pain or something then

0:18:15.490,0:18:19.270
there’s clearly something not right and

0:18:17.740,0:18:21.370
that’s going to take away from your

0:18:19.270,0:18:24.610
productivity so the point where your

0:18:21.370,0:18:27.400
environment almost becomes invisible or

0:18:24.610,0:18:29.710
neutral to your experience is a good

0:18:27.400,0:18:32.169
starting place it’s a good target to go

0:18:29.710,0:18:34.090
after my challenge is always the amount

0:18:32.169,0:18:35.590
of gear that I’m interacting with and

0:18:34.090,0:18:38.799
that and the number of devices around

0:18:35.590,0:18:41.409
and just generalized clutter keeping

0:18:38.799,0:18:44.740
that under control that almost becomes a

0:18:41.409,0:18:48.429
job in and of itself it is it is in a

0:18:44.740,0:18:51.700
certain way it is a job in itself and

0:18:48.429,0:18:53.799
the line between all these things all

0:18:51.700,0:18:55.750
these quick things are worth it and

0:18:53.799,0:18:58.659
they’re a waste of time and a

0:18:55.750,0:19:03.640
distraction and in detrimental to your

0:18:58.659,0:19:07.440
productivity is really thin but for me I

0:19:03.640,0:19:10.419
begin with this stand-up desk for

0:19:07.440,0:19:13.539
because I has a suffering from back pain

0:19:10.419,0:19:16.150
and the back pain was distracting me

0:19:13.539,0:19:19.539
from in productive and it’s hard to

0:19:16.150,0:19:23.950
focus and concentrate when when you are

0:19:19.539,0:19:26.799
in pain the the problem I had at the

0:19:23.950,0:19:30.159
beginning was I was traveling so much

0:19:26.799,0:19:32.770
that require me to really get creative

0:19:30.159,0:19:34.960
when I wanted to set up a stand-up desk

0:19:32.770,0:19:36.730
because I may have been on an

0:19:34.960,0:19:39.340
environment today in a different

0:19:36.730,0:19:42.429
environment tomorrow today it’s a much

0:19:39.340,0:19:45.700
much simpler task I mean my come office

0:19:42.429,0:19:48.220
has one my office has one and then I

0:19:45.700,0:19:51.309
have as I said a treatment trick so if

0:19:48.220,0:19:53.159
I’m traveling by car I can just put that

0:19:51.309,0:19:56.440
one in my car and then I have this one

0:19:53.159,0:20:00.340
everywhere but but let me bring the the

0:19:56.440,0:20:00.730
question of the clutter and the math in

0:20:00.340,0:20:03.340
the

0:20:00.730,0:20:06.040
offices on and I have seen everything

0:20:03.340,0:20:09.340
from the people who cannot sit in a desk

0:20:06.040,0:20:11.650
if that desk is not pristine to the

0:20:09.340,0:20:15.730
people who you know you almost need a

0:20:11.650,0:20:18.280
map to find their desk and on both cases

0:20:15.730,0:20:21.370
I have seen high levels of productivity

0:20:18.280,0:20:25.299
so did you guys have a difference for

0:20:21.370,0:20:28.390
you guys or for any data that can you

0:20:25.299,0:20:31.660
know reassure the messy people that the

0:20:28.390,0:20:34.330
message is car good or or anything on

0:20:31.660,0:20:38.830
that on that topic I will say having a

0:20:34.330,0:20:40.570
little anecdotal experience and it you

0:20:38.830,0:20:44.260
know what my wife had a word with me the

0:20:40.570,0:20:46.929
other day about my my messy desk and you

0:20:44.260,0:20:51.610
know was strange to me was that I didn’t

0:20:46.929,0:20:54.640
think it was messy it doesn’t it didn’t

0:20:51.610,0:20:58.480
live for me like it was not functioning

0:20:54.640,0:21:01.179
it feels functional I have enough room

0:20:58.480,0:21:04.210
around me I can it’s not there’s nothing

0:21:01.179,0:21:08.290
in my environment that feels like it’s a

0:21:04.210,0:21:11.350
barrier to getting worked on so I that

0:21:08.290,0:21:14.650
what what’s going on there is that she

0:21:11.350,0:21:19.179
is just it she has a different level of

0:21:14.650,0:21:21.760
sensitivity around the amount of clutter

0:21:19.179,0:21:24.400
she can work with so she she looks at my

0:21:21.760,0:21:27.070
clutter and says I could never do that I

0:21:24.400,0:21:27.820
look at it and I think it’s it’s it’s

0:21:27.070,0:21:29.140
just fine

0:21:27.820,0:21:31.540
so I suspect that there is something

0:21:29.140,0:21:34.720
something going on in which the

0:21:31.540,0:21:37.030
individual preference is more important

0:21:34.720,0:21:40.240
than just any kind of objective measure

0:21:37.030,0:21:43.809
of how much how many objects there are

0:21:40.240,0:21:48.010
in clean view and I have not found any

0:21:43.809,0:21:50.020
science on on that with respect to

0:21:48.010,0:21:51.730
individual preferences but there are

0:21:50.020,0:21:54.130
other there are other studies that show

0:21:51.730,0:21:56.770
that distracting devices like

0:21:54.130,0:21:59.770
smartphones that unless you put them in

0:21:56.770,0:22:01.179
another room then they are distracting

0:21:59.770,0:22:03.490
even if you turn them off just their

0:22:01.179,0:22:05.049
mere presence causes a distraction so

0:22:03.490,0:22:07.059
there’s a question there also well

0:22:05.049,0:22:09.880
what’s in the environment and if your

0:22:07.059,0:22:12.010
phone is is sitting beside your folder

0:22:09.880,0:22:14.240
sorry beside your laptop the research

0:22:12.010,0:22:17.360
says that your phone will

0:22:14.240,0:22:20.270
tract you even if it’s off so I think

0:22:17.360,0:22:22.340
it’s not just a matter of what sin of

0:22:20.270,0:22:24.170
how much stuff is in the environment you

0:22:22.340,0:22:26.690
know obviously a smartphone is a way

0:22:24.170,0:22:30.290
more powerful distractor than just a

0:22:26.690,0:22:31.429
bunch of papers yeah I couldn’t agree

0:22:30.290,0:22:33.350
more with that and it’s interesting

0:22:31.429,0:22:35.929
because it compounds when you start to

0:22:33.350,0:22:39.020
look at things like smartwatches which

0:22:35.929,0:22:41.150
are moving the notifications closer to

0:22:39.020,0:22:43.280
you even if you put your device out of

0:22:41.150,0:22:45.260
the way you look at interrupts or very

0:22:43.280,0:22:47.150
interrupt-driven societies and

0:22:45.260,0:22:49.429
especially in the professional

0:22:47.150,0:22:52.880
environments everything’s a response to

0:22:49.429,0:22:54.950
a request and being able to control that

0:22:52.880,0:22:57.200
for periods of time and giving ourselves

0:22:54.950,0:23:00.350
permission I mean when I talk about

0:22:57.200,0:23:03.500
clutter I have to mentally quantify it

0:23:00.350,0:23:05.390
into physical clutter and digital

0:23:03.500,0:23:07.040
clutter because digital clutter can be

0:23:05.390,0:23:08.990
just as distracting if not more so

0:23:07.040,0:23:10.490
because you spend time looking at it

0:23:08.990,0:23:12.320
moving things around moving this here

0:23:10.490,0:23:15.200
moving that there but no real progress

0:23:12.320,0:23:16.940
happens so you have to say how am I

0:23:15.200,0:23:19.370
going to mitigate all of this and still

0:23:16.940,0:23:21.190
continue to be productive it’s difficult

0:23:19.370,0:23:25.550
and we have to give ourselves permission

0:23:21.190,0:23:28.610
to make time to handle that if you think

0:23:25.550,0:23:31.280
about if this were a manufacturing

0:23:28.610,0:23:33.290
environment there’s time allocated to go

0:23:31.280,0:23:34.820
through and clean up the workspace and

0:23:33.290,0:23:36.530
make sure if the tools are put away in

0:23:34.820,0:23:39.280
the right spots and make sure tools are

0:23:36.530,0:23:42.080
clean are cleaned and tuned and repaired

0:23:39.280,0:23:43.610
they dedicate time because they know the

0:23:42.080,0:23:47.210
efficiency of the work that they’re

0:23:43.610,0:23:50.480
doing is dependent on that and when when

0:23:47.210,0:23:52.550
you’re an information worker you have to

0:23:50.480,0:23:55.429
give yourself permission to do the same

0:23:52.550,0:23:58.220
things to tune your tools to clean your

0:23:55.429,0:24:00.020
workspace to make sure it is set up in

0:23:58.220,0:24:02.150
the way that you can be most efficient

0:24:00.020,0:24:05.510
and that other people can work with you

0:24:02.150,0:24:09.020
and Dad it’s an important thing to to

0:24:05.510,0:24:13.429
set to work with you and you know as I

0:24:09.020,0:24:15.980
said I am you know I like my clean and I

0:24:13.429,0:24:17.450
need something that you know it may not

0:24:15.980,0:24:19.309
be the last thing I do before I leave

0:24:17.450,0:24:20.270
but it’s the first thing I do before I

0:24:19.309,0:24:22.940
can even work

0:24:20.270,0:24:25.490
it’s I need to reorganize that desk so I

0:24:22.940,0:24:27.500
can be effective and I can work on it

0:24:25.490,0:24:30.770
and but that is what work

0:24:27.500,0:24:33.620
for me and that is really important any

0:24:30.770,0:24:37.010
of these discussions what worked for me

0:24:33.620,0:24:40.220
may not ever ever work for Francis and

0:24:37.010,0:24:43.100
ever work was art and vice versa it’s

0:24:40.220,0:24:45.980
important that you keep that uniqueness

0:24:43.100,0:24:48.560
to your environment and even if they

0:24:45.980,0:24:51.680
look you know as quirks they are

0:24:48.560,0:24:54.500
important if they allow you to get into

0:24:51.680,0:24:56.510
the zone and allows you to be really

0:24:54.500,0:25:00.170
productive I think there is another

0:24:56.510,0:25:02.150
angle here however as you guys were

0:25:00.170,0:25:05.600
talking I was remembering there is some

0:25:02.150,0:25:09.380
research around reminders so if your

0:25:05.600,0:25:11.990
desk is cluttered because it has

0:25:09.380,0:25:13.610
reminders I think that that there’s

0:25:11.990,0:25:16.970
there’s enough research to see that that

0:25:13.610,0:25:20.570
that is ineffective if you’re trying to

0:25:16.970,0:25:24.020
use lots of physical reminders and they

0:25:20.570,0:25:26.030
happen to be in your physical or on your

0:25:24.020,0:25:28.370
physical workspace I think the research

0:25:26.030,0:25:31.490
would see that that doesn’t work if you

0:25:28.370,0:25:34.370
have lots of them one or two maybe but

0:25:31.490,0:25:38.240
above a certain number the Zeigarnik

0:25:34.370,0:25:39.950
effect which is the the pinging that

0:25:38.240,0:25:41.300
your subconscious mind does of your

0:25:39.950,0:25:43.700
conscious mind when you have an

0:25:41.300,0:25:46.970
unfinished task thus agonic effect would

0:25:43.700,0:25:50.660
would become too loud or too strong and

0:25:46.970,0:25:54.170
and therefore interrupt your attention

0:25:50.660,0:25:56.180
so I think if in terms of I think what

0:25:54.170,0:25:57.980
is one at least one clear finding from

0:25:56.180,0:25:59.960
the research which says that the number

0:25:57.980,0:26:01.880
of physical reminders you can use is

0:25:59.960,0:26:03.530
limited even though a physical reminder

0:26:01.880,0:26:05.990
may work really really well

0:26:03.530,0:26:07.690
it’s the you you’re actually limited in

0:26:05.990,0:26:10.040
the number that you can use effectively

0:26:07.690,0:26:12.080
and that’s really an interesting thing

0:26:10.040,0:26:14.510
when you think about and this is kind of

0:26:12.080,0:26:16.190
getting off of the workspace but if we

0:26:14.510,0:26:19.550
think about every place being a

0:26:16.190,0:26:22.610
workspace the idea of being reminder

0:26:19.550,0:26:24.680
driven we look at tools task managers

0:26:22.610,0:26:26.810
and that sort and that’s a deciding

0:26:24.680,0:26:29.480
factor for a lot of people is myself

0:26:26.810,0:26:32.030
included how good is this tool going to

0:26:29.480,0:26:34.700
be to remind me of the things that I

0:26:32.030,0:26:35.929
need to do well if you follow the

0:26:34.700,0:26:38.810
conversation that we’ve done so far

0:26:35.929,0:26:41.270
maybe we have to flip our analysis of

0:26:38.810,0:26:43.580
that around and say am i introduced

0:26:41.270,0:26:46.340
a tool into my system that’s going to

0:26:43.580,0:26:48.410
create so much reminder clutter that

0:26:46.340,0:26:50.960
it’s going to actually pull my

0:26:48.410,0:26:52.970
productivity down because it’s just

0:26:50.960,0:26:56.020
going to be pushing things into my way

0:26:52.970,0:26:58.280
rather than allowing me to get I focused

0:26:56.020,0:27:00.140
continuous flow going it’s an

0:26:58.280,0:27:02.260
interesting thought I hadn’t considered

0:27:00.140,0:27:05.830
it and from this perspective before

0:27:02.260,0:27:09.080
maybe we’re reminding ourselves too much

0:27:05.830,0:27:11.840
about things that are too small and we

0:27:09.080,0:27:14.480
need to look at our systems and say how

0:27:11.840,0:27:16.520
do i balance this I think about the

0:27:14.480,0:27:19.160
people who use a calendar based system

0:27:16.520,0:27:21.050
there’s a limit to how many granular

0:27:19.160,0:27:23.660
items you can put in a calendar based

0:27:21.050,0:27:26.480
system and if you look at classic

0:27:23.660,0:27:29.030
project management methodology typically

0:27:26.480,0:27:32.240
the smallest task you’ll you’ll break

0:27:29.030,0:27:35.120
out is maybe two days maybe a day maybe

0:27:32.240,0:27:37.340
an hour there’s a there’s a point where

0:27:35.120,0:27:39.620
it doesn’t benefit you to get much

0:27:37.340,0:27:42.020
smaller because there’s too many prompts

0:27:39.620,0:27:43.910
to get things done so we’re creating

0:27:42.020,0:27:46.370
that digital clutter I talked about

0:27:43.910,0:27:48.380
earlier with the intent of it trying to

0:27:46.370,0:27:49.610
help us out we have I guess we have to

0:27:48.380,0:27:52.460
take a look at it a little bit more

0:27:49.610,0:27:54.110
carefully and say what’s the the

0:27:52.460,0:27:56.230
downside of what we’re about to

0:27:54.110,0:27:58.430
implement for our overall productivity

0:27:56.230,0:28:01.040
if it’s helping to address one

0:27:58.430,0:28:03.730
particular aspect of it I agree with

0:28:01.040,0:28:07.880
that that’s a that’s a really good point

0:28:03.730,0:28:10.340
and it the typical the average person

0:28:07.880,0:28:14.420
doesn’t exercise a lot of control over

0:28:10.340,0:28:16.340
their their notification their

0:28:14.420,0:28:19.760
environmental notifications let’s call

0:28:16.340,0:28:22.940
it that I did a little bit of research

0:28:19.760,0:28:25.730
on this about a year ago first I do a

0:28:22.940,0:28:28.700
lot more but but sort of moved on to

0:28:25.730,0:28:31.070
other things unfortunately but but one

0:28:28.700,0:28:33.440
thing I found is that it’s I couldn’t

0:28:31.070,0:28:36.410
find an app for example for my Android

0:28:33.440,0:28:38.720
phone that could control all of my

0:28:36.410,0:28:41.180
notifications across all of my devices

0:28:38.720,0:28:44.090
so what I wanted was something that

0:28:41.180,0:28:46.130
could control my at least my thought my

0:28:44.090,0:28:48.560
tablet on my phone and I wanted to

0:28:46.130,0:28:51.650
basically turn them all off and then

0:28:48.560,0:28:54.500
turn them on in a selected kind of way

0:28:51.650,0:28:55.230
so for example the phone rang if my cell

0:28:54.500,0:28:57.240
phone rang

0:28:55.230,0:28:59.039
and I’d actually been having signal

0:28:57.240,0:29:02.460
problems my phone is not being ringing

0:28:59.039,0:29:05.100
but I want I would want it to ring on my

0:29:02.460,0:29:07.019
tablet my laptop on my phone this is for

0:29:05.100,0:29:09.299
a regular phone call cuz I’d want it to

0:29:07.019,0:29:11.789
be that’s a high the highest kind of

0:29:09.299,0:29:13.769
interruption that I could receive and if

0:29:11.789,0:29:15.690
I dismissed it I want I want to dismiss

0:29:13.769,0:29:18.409
it on off so consider that to be the

0:29:15.690,0:29:20.220
most interruptive or they’d the

0:29:18.409,0:29:23.159
notification that I would allow to

0:29:20.220,0:29:25.289
interrupt me on the most circumstances

0:29:23.159,0:29:28.260
but the lower the level of a phone call

0:29:25.289,0:29:29.820
ring there is all the others some that

0:29:28.260,0:29:33.240
that exist including the ones aren’t

0:29:29.820,0:29:38.070
mentioned like a task that’s coming up a

0:29:33.240,0:29:42.210
calendar item reminder to send an email

0:29:38.070,0:29:43.950
to someone notification that an app has

0:29:42.210,0:29:45.779
been updated has no idea why I keep

0:29:43.950,0:29:51.000
getting those but this will keep showing

0:29:45.779,0:29:53.840
up on my on my phone a signal that that

0:29:51.000,0:29:58.230
my computer has too many too many

0:29:53.840,0:30:01.889
programs open and it’s affecting my CPU

0:29:58.230,0:30:04.019
speed someone sending me a semi urgent

0:30:01.889,0:30:06.450
message that I need to attend to maybe

0:30:04.019,0:30:08.010
by text eight attend to it by the end of

0:30:06.450,0:30:09.600
the day so it’s not immediately urgent

0:30:08.010,0:30:11.760
like a phone call but I need to get to

0:30:09.600,0:30:14.039
it by a particular time so it’s safe to

0:30:11.760,0:30:16.710
ignore for no but I’d need to see in the

0:30:14.039,0:30:18.929
past what what what we had was a

0:30:16.710,0:30:21.299
administrative assistant who could take

0:30:18.929,0:30:22.350
care of all of these notifications in

0:30:21.299,0:30:24.720
other words they could protect our

0:30:22.350,0:30:26.870
environment and help us to be effective

0:30:24.720,0:30:30.029
and then they would filter all the

0:30:26.870,0:30:34.260
interruptions and notifications and feed

0:30:30.029,0:30:36.330
them to us sort of after the point of

0:30:34.260,0:30:39.440
triage and bring them to our attention

0:30:36.330,0:30:43.350
with the right level of timing and

0:30:39.440,0:30:45.210
volume and they did a really good job

0:30:43.350,0:30:48.179
they could keep us being extremely

0:30:45.210,0:30:50.159
productive however we don’t most of us

0:30:48.179,0:30:54.630
don’t have that instead we have this

0:30:50.159,0:30:56.730
ugly mishmash of apps and I think oddly

0:30:54.630,0:30:59.340
mish-mosh is way more of an

0:30:56.730,0:31:02.750
environmental factor for me anyway then

0:30:59.340,0:31:06.289
I have a clot or physical clutter or or

0:31:02.750,0:31:09.059
sone sound problems or problems with

0:31:06.289,0:31:10.649
with interrupting zones

0:31:09.059,0:31:14.759
and I don’t think there’s a there’s any

0:31:10.649,0:31:16.350
hope inside I don’t see that anyone and

0:31:14.759,0:31:18.299
I keep monitoring so I look to see who

0:31:16.350,0:31:20.970
is developing the latest apps on product

0:31:18.299,0:31:22.909
hunt I don’t see anyone thinking in

0:31:20.970,0:31:25.710
these terms say how can we give someone

0:31:22.909,0:31:28.220
complete control over all notifications

0:31:25.710,0:31:30.299
all platforms all at the same time

0:31:28.220,0:31:32.279
synchronize them completely and

0:31:30.299,0:31:34.049
essentially mimic what a great

0:31:32.279,0:31:35.220
administrator assistant used to do I

0:31:34.049,0:31:37.529
don’t see anyone heading in that

0:31:35.220,0:31:39.509
direction yet maybe you guys do that I’d

0:31:37.529,0:31:40.740
love to hear now I have to agree with

0:31:39.509,0:31:43.230
you in that when looking at what

0:31:40.740,0:31:44.519
androids doing with Android

0:31:43.230,0:31:46.320
oh they’re improving the new

0:31:44.519,0:31:48.629
notifications functions in there but

0:31:46.320,0:31:52.769
you’re right it doesn’t change that flow

0:31:48.629,0:31:56.220
funnel I’ve actually fallen back on my

0:31:52.769,0:31:59.279
SmartWatch I use a Samsung gear fit too

0:31:56.220,0:32:01.700
as kind of the funnel because what it

0:31:59.279,0:32:05.429
allows me to do is to say what

0:32:01.700,0:32:07.980
notifications will come to the fit and

0:32:05.429,0:32:09.450
what won’t so I can literally go through

0:32:07.980,0:32:10.679
and say look I don’t want any of these

0:32:09.450,0:32:13.139
anymore I don’t want any of these

0:32:10.679,0:32:14.639
anymore but they stay on my phone so I

0:32:13.139,0:32:19.590
can get to them later on what I need to

0:32:14.639,0:32:21.690
so I’m creating tiers of immediacy when

0:32:19.590,0:32:24.990
it comes to the notification but are

0:32:21.690,0:32:26.789
there too many absolutely there isn’t a

0:32:24.990,0:32:28.470
day that goes by that I don’t go into a

0:32:26.789,0:32:30.720
system going man I wish I had seen that

0:32:28.470,0:32:33.779
notification three days ago but there’s

0:32:30.720,0:32:36.389
just so many I missed it so we have to

0:32:33.779,0:32:38.249
kind of balance that piece of it is

0:32:36.389,0:32:40.409
there anybody trying to unify it not

0:32:38.249,0:32:41.999
that I’ve seen everybody thinks they

0:32:40.409,0:32:44.399
have the best way to do it and the best

0:32:41.999,0:32:47.100
way to handle it I would love to see

0:32:44.399,0:32:49.590
some systems some of the automation

0:32:47.100,0:32:51.749
systems maybe like an IFTTT or something

0:32:49.590,0:32:54.360
like that start to handle that in a way

0:32:51.749,0:32:56.519
to provide almost that digital virtual

0:32:54.360,0:33:02.570
assistant but I think we’re still a ways

0:32:56.519,0:33:06.659
off from that you know I I had an old

0:33:02.570,0:33:09.600
pebble that sadly the battery is almost

0:33:06.659,0:33:13.230
dead so so it will be replaced on the

0:33:09.600,0:33:16.169
fall with an Apple watch but when I had

0:33:13.230,0:33:19.830
it I was using a similar system to what

0:33:16.169,0:33:22.559
art is saying except that it wasn’t on

0:33:19.830,0:33:26.749
my phone it was on my

0:33:22.559,0:33:30.120
I pass so my iPad gets most of the

0:33:26.749,0:33:33.509
notifications and the phone I actually

0:33:30.120,0:33:36.149
have two of them so I have an iPad Mini

0:33:33.509,0:33:39.809
that gets most of the notifications I

0:33:36.149,0:33:42.120
have an iPad pro who is really skimp in

0:33:39.809,0:33:44.240
notifications because is where I want to

0:33:42.120,0:33:48.960
focus I don’t want to be distracted and

0:33:44.240,0:33:52.559
on my phone in order to distract me on

0:33:48.960,0:33:56.039
my phone do almost me to earn that right

0:33:52.559,0:33:59.159
so I have most of the notifications on

0:33:56.039,0:34:03.419
the phone deactivated even my default

0:33:59.159,0:34:06.600
sound is no sound it vibrates but it do

0:34:03.419,0:34:08.819
not give sound and the reason is if I’m

0:34:06.600,0:34:11.970
concentrated the vibration doesn’t break

0:34:08.819,0:34:14.460
my concentration so if you want to be on

0:34:11.970,0:34:17.909
my phone and actually make noise you

0:34:14.460,0:34:21.119
need to earn that right and you can lose

0:34:17.909,0:34:24.300
it too because that you know if you it

0:34:21.119,0:34:26.970
allows me to keep focus work for a much

0:34:24.300,0:34:29.190
much longer time you know when I was

0:34:26.970,0:34:31.800
looking into this little bit of wriggle

0:34:29.190,0:34:34.740
a year ago I wrote an article in which I

0:34:31.800,0:34:36.839
I advise the reader to turn off all the

0:34:34.740,0:34:40.020
notifications apart from maybe their

0:34:36.839,0:34:42.300
phone and then do a combination of what

0:34:40.020,0:34:44.669
you guys suggested which is to turn them

0:34:42.300,0:34:48.780
back on one by one in other words have

0:34:44.669,0:34:53.099
them earn the right to to be a part of

0:34:48.780,0:34:55.409
your ecosystem of notifications and as

0:34:53.099,0:34:56.310
you if you missed one and realize you

0:34:55.409,0:34:59.490
couldn’t do without it

0:34:56.310,0:35:01.230
okay turn that one on if one caused the

0:34:59.490,0:35:03.450
problem because it was off turn that one

0:35:01.230,0:35:05.579
on if there’s a new app that was

0:35:03.450,0:35:07.380
properly could behave properly if you

0:35:05.579,0:35:09.930
you hope try that one

0:35:07.380,0:35:11.550
see if it worked but you know I felt

0:35:09.930,0:35:14.760
like the advice I was giving was really

0:35:11.550,0:35:17.579
crude it was really it was so basic I’d

0:35:14.760,0:35:19.470
never read it before like that but it

0:35:17.579,0:35:22.619
seemed like that was the only way to

0:35:19.470,0:35:24.390
stay is saying that if if if I don’t

0:35:22.619,0:35:26.430
have some level of control over these

0:35:24.390,0:35:28.619
apps and they don’t properly earn the

0:35:26.430,0:35:31.980
right which includes giving me control

0:35:28.619,0:35:34.140
over the notification to some degree and

0:35:31.980,0:35:35.910
also giving me sparrin see because this

0:35:34.140,0:35:37.140
lots of times I download an app

0:35:35.910,0:35:45.480
and all of a sudden it starts to

0:35:37.140,0:35:47.220
misbehave I figure out then an ongoing

0:35:45.480,0:35:49.740
problem as I suited my phone ringing

0:35:47.220,0:35:52.890
somehow some app has grabbed a whole

0:35:49.740,0:35:54.630
pulled of my my ringtone and turns it

0:35:52.890,0:35:57.660
off every night I kind of figure out

0:35:54.630,0:36:00.030
which app it is which feature right I

0:35:57.660,0:36:02.250
have been looking at so so they don’t

0:36:00.030,0:36:03.720
behave properly so no more do they not

0:36:02.250,0:36:05.700
earn the right but they actually make

0:36:03.720,0:36:08.160
things worse and then you’re not quite

0:36:05.700,0:36:11.579
sure which one is it that’s causing this

0:36:08.160,0:36:13.980
problem so as users we’re sort of we

0:36:11.579,0:36:16.349
were sort of way in the sort of the

0:36:13.980,0:36:17.819
beginning phase of getting control over

0:36:16.349,0:36:20.190
our environment with a perspective is

0:36:17.819,0:36:21.900
really important devices I think it’s

0:36:20.190,0:36:23.700
interesting as we talk through this and

0:36:21.900,0:36:26.010
we and basically we’re talking about

0:36:23.700,0:36:27.750
things like digital bankruptcy and when

0:36:26.010,0:36:29.789
people are dealing with inboxes Eero the

0:36:27.750,0:36:31.890
same concepts come into play but if you

0:36:29.789,0:36:34.020
if you back it up a little bit the same

0:36:31.890,0:36:35.849
thing as applying on the physical spaces

0:36:34.020,0:36:37.710
it is the digital space because there’s

0:36:35.849,0:36:40.500
a point when you have so much clutter

0:36:37.710,0:36:42.450
it’s like look just all of it goes you

0:36:40.500,0:36:44.460
know just put your arm on the desk slide

0:36:42.450,0:36:46.410
it across clear the desk off and then

0:36:44.460,0:36:48.779
start picking up stuff off the floor and

0:36:46.410,0:36:51.599
determine what has earned the right to

0:36:48.779,0:36:53.039
go back on the desk we’re doing the same

0:36:51.599,0:36:55.079
thing we’re just doing it in the digital

0:36:53.039,0:36:57.690
space and it’s just giving ourselves

0:36:55.079,0:36:59.700
that permission again to say okay you

0:36:57.690,0:37:01.859
have no there’s nothing here that has

0:36:59.700,0:37:04.200
any more importance than anything else

0:37:01.859,0:37:06.000
at this point you are all going to start

0:37:04.200,0:37:07.650
from zero and we are going to start

0:37:06.000,0:37:10.890
going from that point forward and say

0:37:07.650,0:37:13.049
okay mr. facebook notification I don’t

0:37:10.890,0:37:14.900
need you all the time I’m going to turn

0:37:13.049,0:37:17.640
you off and I’ll check that occasional

0:37:14.900,0:37:18.569
however you know my telegram

0:37:17.640,0:37:20.039
notifications

0:37:18.569,0:37:22.920
I need those so you’re gonna get a

0:37:20.039,0:37:25.500
higher priority it’s important time

0:37:22.920,0:37:28.700
spent and unfortunately we do have a

0:37:25.500,0:37:31.680
tendency to deprioritize that effort in

0:37:28.700,0:37:33.930
contrast to other work that quote has to

0:37:31.680,0:37:35.490
be done well if we don’t take time to do

0:37:33.930,0:37:37.920
the stuff to make ourselves more

0:37:35.490,0:37:40.589
efficient the other work is not going to

0:37:37.920,0:37:42.270
happen at any better rate so I think you

0:37:40.589,0:37:45.569
guys are absolutely right as we look at

0:37:42.270,0:37:48.119
this can we take the time can we set a

0:37:45.569,0:37:49.710
time is this something that do you think

0:37:48.119,0:37:52.350
we should be doing this

0:37:49.710,0:37:54.480
on a daily basis a weekly basis a

0:37:52.350,0:37:56.970
monthly basis how frequently do you guys

0:37:54.480,0:38:00.390
think we should kind of purge and reset

0:37:56.970,0:38:01.980
our systems I think ultimately hopefully

0:38:00.390,0:38:04.110
at some point in our lifetime someone

0:38:01.980,0:38:05.940
will make it easy for us to do it it’s

0:38:04.110,0:38:08.520
just that it’s hard to do it today it’s

0:38:05.940,0:38:11.760
just really time-consuming and laborious

0:38:08.520,0:38:14.220
and tedious and mysterious and bad ways

0:38:11.760,0:38:16.650
and I think there’s an opportunity for

0:38:14.220,0:38:19.440
someone to come up with a sort of a

0:38:16.650,0:38:21.060
controller kind of software that makes

0:38:19.440,0:38:23.340
it easy for us to do that but I think

0:38:21.060,0:38:26.610
it’s a initially there’s an investment

0:38:23.340,0:38:28.500
today the investment is sort of you’ve

0:38:26.610,0:38:30.510
got to make it continuously and you’ve

0:38:28.500,0:38:32.100
got to invest a good amount of time to

0:38:30.510,0:38:34.140
do it because it’s all manual but I

0:38:32.100,0:38:36.030
think in the future someone will find a

0:38:34.140,0:38:38.160
way to help make it easier for us and

0:38:36.030,0:38:39.660
then the frequency would it would be an

0:38:38.160,0:38:41.250
exception I think it’s an exception

0:38:39.660,0:38:44.100
basis that it’s a sort of a secondly

0:38:41.250,0:38:47.580
that kind of situation in the future but

0:38:44.100,0:38:49.800
today it’s manual and if you’re not

0:38:47.580,0:38:52.200
careful you know in a week’s time you’ll

0:38:49.800,0:38:54.480
have some app just driving you crazy or

0:38:52.200,0:38:56.100
like in my case ticking over important

0:38:54.480,0:38:56.790
functions and you can’t figure out where

0:38:56.100,0:38:58.380
it’s coming from

0:38:56.790,0:39:02.010
it’s like well we’re in a bad spot here

0:38:58.380,0:39:04.680
save us a booster I don’t know if I’m

0:39:02.010,0:39:07.380
going to save us but I’d say that will

0:39:04.680,0:39:09.480
depend on what we’re talking so if we go

0:39:07.380,0:39:13.260
and keep talking about her the work

0:39:09.480,0:39:16.740
space I will say around half once a year

0:39:13.260,0:39:19.200
I learned you know I years ago I begin

0:39:16.740,0:39:22.410
reading a my friend Michael Solinsky

0:39:19.200,0:39:25.050
redoing his office once a year and once

0:39:22.410,0:39:28.050
a year he basically got all this office

0:39:25.050,0:39:30.390
out of the space and then think about

0:39:28.050,0:39:32.700
everything that is going to come back so

0:39:30.390,0:39:35.250
in a way anything that is going to come

0:39:32.700,0:39:38.100
back into that environment need to earn

0:39:35.250,0:39:40.290
that space into this environment and

0:39:38.100,0:39:41.850
when I read in that when everything

0:39:40.290,0:39:46.380
written down I said wow that seems like

0:39:41.850,0:39:48.870
a lot of work so happened that on one of

0:39:46.380,0:39:52.800
the years he did it I had to move my

0:39:48.870,0:39:55.080
home office so I decided instead of move

0:39:52.800,0:39:57.720
as I have moved in the past

0:39:55.080,0:40:00.330
so aka everything and figure out how to

0:39:57.720,0:40:03.540
fit it in there I decide to use the

0:40:00.330,0:40:06.390
opportunity to revise any

0:40:03.540,0:40:08.490
that was coming back and see if anything

0:40:06.390,0:40:11.580
that was coming back had really a space

0:40:08.490,0:40:14.010
could earn a space or me to get out of

0:40:11.580,0:40:17.400
the space and the experience was

0:40:14.010,0:40:19.710
fantastic I got rid of a bunch of junk

0:40:17.400,0:40:22.440
out of my home office that it was there

0:40:19.710,0:40:24.960
some of a reminder some because hey well

0:40:22.440,0:40:27.660
you know I had it in the past and some

0:40:24.960,0:40:31.320
that was simply using a space on the

0:40:27.660,0:40:34.260
home office so after that I said okay

0:40:31.320,0:40:36.990
this was a really useful exercise and I

0:40:34.260,0:40:40.230
create on my calendar an appointment for

0:40:36.990,0:40:43.230
a year after and I redid the exercise

0:40:40.230,0:40:47.040
and it was again fantastic and since

0:40:43.230,0:40:49.560
every time September hits around I took

0:40:47.040,0:40:52.530
everything down from network cables

0:40:49.560,0:40:56.340
everything and revised everything that

0:40:52.530,0:41:01.110
comes into my physical home office as

0:40:56.340,0:41:04.140
well as my office in my space in the

0:41:01.110,0:41:06.690
office or my office in the office and it

0:41:04.140,0:41:08.850
is a fantastic experience because you

0:41:06.690,0:41:11.070
don’t notice those little things you

0:41:08.850,0:41:14.790
start putting on shelves on the desk

0:41:11.070,0:41:17.070
under on the corner that really have no

0:41:14.790,0:41:20.430
space there and the only thing that

0:41:17.070,0:41:22.170
produced is white noise or or black

0:41:20.430,0:41:26.240
noise because it’s not really a pleasant

0:41:22.170,0:41:30.150
one regarding my digital life so my

0:41:26.240,0:41:33.030
iPhone and my tablets and the computer I

0:41:30.150,0:41:37.860
should do it more often but I do it also

0:41:33.030,0:41:40.230
once a year and then I make a backup of

0:41:37.860,0:41:43.560
the iPod so if you know something

0:41:40.230,0:41:47.040
happened I can restore quickly and then

0:41:43.560,0:41:50.970
remove everything restore installed on

0:41:47.040,0:41:53.430
us and then go one by one just it’s

0:41:50.970,0:41:57.210
time-consuming no question about it but

0:41:53.430,0:42:01.010
most of the time I’m able to reduce the

0:41:57.210,0:42:04.080
amount of junk that my devices have

0:42:01.010,0:42:06.930
significantly because the reality is is

0:42:04.080,0:42:09.690
so easy to install something these days

0:42:06.930,0:42:11.850
it’s in many cases even so cheap that

0:42:09.690,0:42:14.040
you say okay fine I will pay and install

0:42:11.850,0:42:16.910
it and then you use it two times never

0:42:14.040,0:42:19.280
use it again but is there is

0:42:16.910,0:42:23.090
cycles is making noise is using this

0:42:19.280,0:42:26.270
page and in a way it’s doing a negative

0:42:23.090,0:42:28.850
effect instead of a positive one so if

0:42:26.270,0:42:31.480
you don’t want to do the full cleaning

0:42:28.850,0:42:34.370
and you don’t want to start the device

0:42:31.480,0:42:37.160
from scratch every time the other thing

0:42:34.370,0:42:40.670
you can do is use that you can do easily

0:42:37.160,0:42:43.610
on iOS as well as Android is use

0:42:40.670,0:42:45.680
different pages so use a page for the

0:42:43.610,0:42:49.580
applications that you use the most and

0:42:45.680,0:42:52.760
make the applications earn that position

0:42:49.580,0:42:55.310
on that prime real estate of that first

0:42:52.760,0:42:58.430
page and then start moving things and

0:42:55.310,0:43:01.130
hiding them to the point that then it’s

0:42:58.430,0:43:03.680
almost more work to find them that just

0:43:01.130,0:43:05.750
don’t use them and you will then

0:43:03.680,0:43:07.640
naturally go to the point well if this

0:43:05.750,0:43:10.250
thing is already on the third page

0:43:07.640,0:43:12.380
freely it can be deleted I don’t use it

0:43:10.250,0:43:15.290
who knows when was the last time I use

0:43:12.380,0:43:18.980
it so those are the two things I do to

0:43:15.290,0:43:22.130
clean my physical space and my digital

0:43:18.980,0:43:24.680
one that’s that process is a great way

0:43:22.130,0:43:26.540
to handle it I love doing that I don’t

0:43:24.680,0:43:29.030
do it often enough on my phone because I

0:43:26.540,0:43:31.970
have a tendency to accumulate apps on my

0:43:29.030,0:43:34.490
phone like many of us do so I have to

0:43:31.970,0:43:36.530
periodically go through and say wait

0:43:34.490,0:43:38.570
what was that app again and if I ask

0:43:36.530,0:43:40.370
that question I apparently have not used

0:43:38.570,0:43:41.090
it recently and probably can take it off

0:43:40.370,0:43:43.190
my phone

0:43:41.090,0:43:44.540
but there’s if you look at a lot of the

0:43:43.190,0:43:47.480
blogs there’s a great blog called

0:43:44.540,0:43:50.210
unclutter er that has these types of

0:43:47.480,0:43:54.140
tips and tricks that can be adapted to

0:43:50.210,0:43:57.410
apply to our own workspaces and the only

0:43:54.140,0:44:00.040
caution I provide is to watch the rabbit

0:43:57.410,0:44:03.530
hole because it can almost become

0:44:00.040,0:44:06.770
detrimental to spend so much time trying

0:44:03.530,0:44:08.870
to mentally and physically unclutter

0:44:06.770,0:44:11.440
what we’re doing to to try and reach

0:44:08.870,0:44:14.720
that mythical peak productivity

0:44:11.440,0:44:16.820
environment we still we still have to

0:44:14.720,0:44:18.680
follow that the classic 8020 measure

0:44:16.820,0:44:20.990
find the things that are going to make

0:44:18.680,0:44:23.870
the biggest impact implement those and

0:44:20.990,0:44:26.000
don’t sweat the small stuff get back to

0:44:23.870,0:44:29.270
work and get things done and then work

0:44:26.000,0:44:30.690
into smaller and smaller details as the

0:44:29.270,0:44:32.609
bigger things have taken hold

0:44:30.690,0:44:34.260
but there is a point where you just need

0:44:32.609,0:44:39.180
to stop trying to make it better and

0:44:34.260,0:44:42.420
just get some work done I agree and and

0:44:39.180,0:44:44.849
it it’s funny because we started off the

0:44:42.420,0:44:47.690
conversation and some of the outline to

0:44:44.849,0:44:49.829
the physical clutter or at least

0:44:47.690,0:44:52.230
non-digital and we’ve sort of moved

0:44:49.829,0:44:56.099
noted talking about digital digital

0:44:52.230,0:44:59.430
clutter or digital environment and III

0:44:56.099,0:45:02.369
think that the focus on keeping your

0:44:59.430,0:45:05.069
digital environment pristine or workable

0:45:02.369,0:45:06.839
or productive is a brand new topic for

0:45:05.069,0:45:08.700
us to be looking at in terms of this was

0:45:06.839,0:45:10.500
as human beings because before the

0:45:08.700,0:45:12.780
digital age there were there were no

0:45:10.500,0:45:14.819
digital objects for us to have to worry

0:45:12.780,0:45:16.200
about but no they’ve become a huge part

0:45:14.819,0:45:18.630
of our life I want to create a whole

0:45:16.200,0:45:20.579
different show on just just managing

0:45:18.630,0:45:23.550
digital clutter because this there’s

0:45:20.579,0:45:27.000
seems to be a whole bunch of levels in

0:45:23.550,0:45:29.430
terms of how we can even think about

0:45:27.000,0:45:32.960
digital it’s not just about clutter it’s

0:45:29.430,0:45:37.650
about digital processes digital apps

0:45:32.960,0:45:39.839
digital data resources that we need we

0:45:37.650,0:45:42.060
don’t yet have a structured way to think

0:45:39.839,0:45:45.210
about the digital objects in our life

0:45:42.060,0:45:47.940
and I’m thinking we need one badly well

0:45:45.210,0:45:50.550
your wish may be granted and and we may

0:45:47.940,0:45:53.339
have that show pretty soon any tip you

0:45:50.550,0:45:55.410
can leave to or listeners any closing

0:45:53.339,0:45:57.119
comments on you guys have I would

0:45:55.410,0:46:01.619
reiterate what I mentioned before which

0:45:57.119,0:46:03.359
is just the idea of we’re all actually

0:46:01.619,0:46:05.220
repeated in different ways which is the

0:46:03.359,0:46:07.530
turn off everything and then bring

0:46:05.220,0:46:10.170
everything back in one by one until you

0:46:07.530,0:46:12.660
feel comfortable it’s painful I had to

0:46:10.170,0:46:15.480
do in my smartphone and my laptop in the

0:46:12.660,0:46:17.940
last year but the result I’m so happy

0:46:15.480,0:46:19.440
with the result it just just up before

0:46:17.940,0:46:21.960
doing it just seemed like it was gonna

0:46:19.440,0:46:23.670
kill me but after the fact it’s the best

0:46:21.960,0:46:26.280
feeling in the world to have done it

0:46:23.670,0:46:29.339
there for me it’s really just the

0:46:26.280,0:46:31.800
reminder that the work you do to make

0:46:29.339,0:46:35.040
yourself more efficient at the other

0:46:31.800,0:46:37.079
work you do is as just as important so

0:46:35.040,0:46:40.560
giving yourself that permission to take

0:46:37.079,0:46:42.030
time to sharpen the saw to use the old

0:46:40.560,0:46:44.730
axiom

0:46:42.030,0:46:47.730
is something we have to want to be at

0:46:44.730,0:46:51.150
our peak productivity for me you know

0:46:47.730,0:46:54.570
the reality is we also clutter at a

0:46:51.150,0:46:57.780
faster speed than we used to it used to

0:46:54.570,0:47:00.630
be much more difficult to acquire goods

0:46:57.780,0:47:03.630
and it used to be much more difficult to

0:47:00.630,0:47:05.340
acquire digital goods you know doesn’t

0:47:03.630,0:47:09.120
matter if we’re talking about a movie a

0:47:05.340,0:47:13.170
PDF a free report it used to be a much

0:47:09.120,0:47:16.050
more complex things to do you know we we

0:47:13.170,0:47:18.930
take for granted the fact that I can go

0:47:16.050,0:47:22.830
online at least here in the states go to

0:47:18.930,0:47:25.290
Amazon now and get most of a lot of

0:47:22.830,0:47:27.660
things in the two hours without even

0:47:25.290,0:47:31.350
need to move out of my office

0:47:27.660,0:47:33.660
and the reality is that we are getting

0:47:31.350,0:47:36.540
more and more clutter and a much faster

0:47:33.660,0:47:39.540
speed that required that we also get

0:47:36.540,0:47:42.630
better at processing that I had to get

0:47:39.540,0:47:45.390
rid of it so it’s where it comes

0:47:42.630,0:47:48.030
important that you evaluate that

0:47:45.390,0:47:50.900
environment that you figured out how to

0:47:48.030,0:47:55.260
keep it in the pristine place and

0:47:50.900,0:47:58.800
discover what you need to do to be able

0:47:55.260,0:48:02.100
to have a really productive one if not

0:47:58.800,0:48:04.260
hey move find a different one you know

0:48:02.100,0:48:06.300
you get a place where you receive hold

0:48:04.260,0:48:07.920
it you will you work with the clutter

0:48:06.300,0:48:10.500
and then get a place where you can

0:48:07.920,0:48:12.870
really be productive is that’s possible

0:48:10.500,0:48:15.630
for you so did you just say that I can

0:48:12.870,0:48:19.130
tell my wife that my cluttered office is

0:48:15.630,0:48:24.330
Jeff Bezos is fault not mine hey that’s

0:48:19.130,0:48:25.770
your wife I just want to be clear just

0:48:24.330,0:48:27.540
what be clear that there is you know

0:48:25.770,0:48:30.960
professional reinforcement of this

0:48:27.540,0:48:34.430
particular mindset so she’s not gonna

0:48:30.960,0:48:34.430
buy it but it’s worth a shot

0:48:35.120,0:48:43.320
I my wife doesn’t buy either but Hays

0:48:38.730,0:48:46.890
always worth a shot who is that

0:48:43.320,0:48:49.770
this is another episode of productivity

0:48:46.890,0:48:52.590
cast weekly show about all things

0:48:49.770,0:48:55.710
productivity thank you very much that’s

0:48:52.590,0:48:57.450
it for this episode of productivity cast

0:48:55.710,0:49:00.240
the weekly show about all things

0:48:57.450,0:49:04.099
productivity with your hosts Ray Sidney-

0:49:00.240,0:49:04.099
Smith and Augusto Pinaud

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