{"id":999,"date":"2020-09-24T08:30:00","date_gmt":"2020-09-24T12:30:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/productivitycast.net\/?p=999"},"modified":"2020-09-19T19:53:52","modified_gmt":"2020-09-19T23:53:52","slug":"091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/productivitycast.net\/091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career\/","title":{"rendered":"Should You Do What You Love as a Career?"},"content":{"rendered":"<div itemscope itemtype=\"http:\/\/schema.org\/AudioObject\"><meta itemprop=\"name\" content=\"Should You Do What You Love as a Career?\" \/><meta itemprop=\"uploadDate\" content=\"2020-09-24T08:30:00-04:00\" \/><meta itemprop=\"encodingFormat\" content=\"audio\/mpeg\" \/><meta itemprop=\"duration\" content=\"PT43M34S\" \/><meta itemprop=\"description\" content=\"\n What is the reason for having a career that you enjoy (or \u201clove\u201d)? And, what can you do action-wise to change the trajectory of your career satisfaction\/life fulfillment? That\u2019s what the ProductivityCast team tackles on this cast! Enjoy!\n\n\n\n(If you...\" \/><meta itemprop=\"contentUrl\" content=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/productivitycast\/content.blubrry.com\/productivitycast\/091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career-productivitycast.mp3\" \/><meta itemprop=\"contentSize\" content=\"41.1\" \/><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/player.blubrry.com\/?media_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.blubrry.com%2Fproductivitycast%2Fcontent.blubrry.com%2Fproductivitycast%2F091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career-productivitycast.mp3&amp;podcast_link=https%3A%2F%2Fproductivitycast.net%2F091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career%2F\" scrolling=\"no\" width=\"100%\" height=\"165\" frameborder=\"0\" id=\"blubrryplayer-1\" class=\"blubrryplayer\" title=\"Blubrry Podcast Player\"><\/iframe><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/productivitycast\/content.blubrry.com\/productivitycast\/091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career-productivitycast.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/productivitycast.net\/?powerpress_pinw=999-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/productivitycast\/content.blubrry.com\/productivitycast\/091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career-productivitycast.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career-productivitycast.mp3\">Download<\/a> | <a href=\"#\" class=\"powerpress_link_e\" title=\"Embed\" onclick=\"return powerpress_show_embed('999-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Embed<\/a><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_embed_box\" id=\"powerpress_embed_999-podcast\" style=\"display: none;\"><input id=\"powerpress_embed_999-podcast_t\" type=\"text\" value=\"&lt;iframe src=&quot;https:\/\/player.blubrry.com\/?media_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.blubrry.com%2Fproductivitycast%2Fcontent.blubrry.com%2Fproductivitycast%2F091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career-productivitycast.mp3&amp;podcast_link=https%3A%2F%2Fproductivitycast.net%2F091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career%2F&quot; scrolling=&quot;no&quot; width=&quot;100%&quot; height=&quot;165&quot; frameborder=&quot;0&quot; id=&quot;blubrryplayer-2&quot; class=&quot;blubrryplayer&quot; title=&quot;Blubrry Podcast Player&quot;&gt;&lt;\/iframe&gt;\" onclick=\"javascript: this.select();\" onfocus=\"javascript: this.select();\" style=\"width: 70%;\" readOnly><\/p><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/productivitycast\/id1088480807?mt=2&amp;ls=1#episodeGuid=https%3A%2F%2Fproductivitycast.net%2F%3Fp%3D999\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_itunes\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe on Apple Podcasts\" rel=\"nofollow\">Apple Podcasts<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/productivitycast.net\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/productivitycast.net\/subscribe\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_more\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"More\" rel=\"nofollow\">More<\/a><\/p>\n<p> What is the reason for having a career that you enjoy (or \u201clove\u201d)? And, what can you do action-wise to change the trajectory of your career satisfaction\/life fulfillment? That\u2019s what the <em>ProductivityCast <\/em>team tackles on this cast! Enjoy!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>(If you\u2019re reading this in a podcast directory\/app, please visit <a href=\"https:\/\/productivitycast.net\/NNN\">https:\/\/productivitycast.net\/091<\/a> for clickable links and the full show notes and transcript of this cast.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Enjoy! <a href=\"http:\/\/productivitycast.net\/contact\/\">Give us feedback<\/a>! And, thanks for listening!<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to continue discussing should you do what you love as a career from this episode, please <a href=\"#reply-title\">click here to leave a comment<\/a> down below (this jumps you to the bottom of the post).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">In this Cast<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/productivitycast.net\/about\/\">Ray Sidney-Smith<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/productivitycast.net\/about\/\">Augusto Pinaud<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/productivitycast.net\/about\/\">Francis Wade<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Show Notes | <strong>Should You Do What You Love as a Career<\/strong>?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Resources we mention, including links to them, will be provided here. Please listen to the episode for context.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3aCuOj5\">Do What You Love, The Money Will Follow: Discovering Your Right Livelihood<\/a> by Marsha Sinetar<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/hbr.org\/2015\/11\/how-company-culture-shapes-employee-motivation\">How Company Culture Shapes Employee Motivation<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Dr. MLK&#039;s &#039;Street Sweeper&#039; Speech at Philadelphia School October 26, 1967\" width=\"810\" height=\"456\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/202nbcLwxsg?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><figcaption><a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=202nbcLwxsg\">Dr. MLK&#8217;s &#8216;Street Sweeper&#8217; Speech at Philadelphia School October 26, 1967<\/a><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p>On job crafting, <a href=\"https:\/\/hbr.org\/2010\/06\/managing-yourself-turn-the-job-you-have-into-the-job-you-want\">Managing Yourself: Turn the Job You Have into the Job You Want<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/bigthink.com\/videos\/data-career-boost\">You can use data to boost your career. Here\u2019s how. | Neil Irwin | Big Think<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2REdqD4\">Mindset: The New Psychology of Success<\/a> by Carol Dweck, PhD<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>     <a href=\"https:\/\/productivitybookgroup.org\/2020\/06\/25\/mindset-productivity-book-group\/\">Mindset &#8211; Productivity Book Group<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.forbes.com\/sites\/annlatham\/2016\/02\/28\/do-what-you-love-and-watch-your-productivity-suffer\/#e7712b2cd82b\">Do What You Love &#8212; And Watch Your Productivity Suffer<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/doist.com\/blog\/how-to-love-your-job\/\">4 Concrete Steps to Take to Love Your Job Again (Backed By Science)<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.businessnewsdaily.com\/7995-reasons-to-do-what-you-love.html\">Reasons to Do What You Love for a Living<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theladders.com\/career-advice\/5-strategies-to-move-toward-a-career-you-love\">5 strategies to move toward a career you love<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theladders.com\/career-advice\/how-to-love-your-job-even-when-you-hate-your-job\">How to love your job even when you hate your job<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.theladders.com\/career-advice\/dont-follow-your-passion\">Don&#8217;t &#8220;follow your passion&#8221;<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/hbr.org\/2010\/06\/managing-yourself-turn-the-job-you-have-into-the-job-you-want\">Managing Yourself: Turn the Job You Have into the Job You Want<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/lh3.googleusercontent.com\/IPlffUXlzddWA26aJAmJIDrr0v8qc_MX4gvREmquyEFmKmsVwlQlZaMAo4cQe_q8JxgLBvHQjTLBTplSf3XGY1jlrJf3tasHxKsrF7214IYpTsRIavb6m5YPM0RGbq02GpQfhEpi\" alt=\"\"\/><figcaption>Source\/Credit: <a href=\"https:\/\/fs.blog\/2015\/10\/reasons-we-work\/\">The Reasons We Work<\/a><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"aligncenter\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/lh4.googleusercontent.com\/mMfOvV_y5uwzoJi-pOQfmH4F_0Qo_7RQwAsoRwiiWnJjnCrctNnb5-QN1H1-QhhzsWbc0Hi9C8guqyHYQKS9k_16-j5vAZLpsFLGedfwmJ0T1peVt7tAbzn0LoEU6qZseGFPxdWf\" alt=\"\"\/><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/lh5.googleusercontent.com\/m_TUXNG7GrDwLMce6J8aw2-TxWzgIib-FMcF5mrLOKjvSo98yBw2hpj-4NXaKB1-yZJNGnagkZlU0abV14CeOfQ2ymR0t-UdeRVTAGiRrTKj4fYfwjwCe2b4YEIXofdmenn_LtlT\" alt=\"\"\/><figcaption>Source\/Credit: <a href=\"https:\/\/informationisbeautiful.net\/visualizations\/ikigai-japanese-concept-to-enhance-work-life-sense-of-worth\/\">Ikigai \u2013 Japanese concept to enhance work, life &amp; sense of worth<\/a><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Raw Text Transcript | <strong>Should You Do What You Love as a Career<\/strong>?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Raw, unedited and machine-produced text transcript so there may be substantial errors, but you can search for specific points in the episode to jump to, or to reference back to at a later date and time, by keywords or key phrases. The time coding is mm:ss (e.g., 0:04 starts at 4 seconds into the cast\u2019s audio).<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n<span><a onclick=\"read_toggle(794300086, 'Read More', 'Read Less'); return false;\" class=\"read-link\" id=\"readlink794300086\" style=\"readlink\" href=\"#\">Read More<\/a><\/span>\n<div class=\"read_div\" id=\"read794300086\" style=\"display: none;\"><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Voiceover Artist  0:00  <br> Are you ready to manage your work and personal world better to live a fulfilling productive life, then you&#8217;ve come to the right place productivity cast, the weekly show about all things productivity. Here, your host Ray Sidney-Smith and Augusto Pinaud with Francis Wade and Art Gelwicks.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Raymond Sidney-Smith  0:17  <br> And Welcome back, everybody to productivity cast, the weekly show about all things personal productivity, I&#8217;m Ray Sidney-Smith.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Francis Wade 0:20<br>I&#8217;m Francis Wade.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Augusto Pinaud  0:22  <br> I am Augusto Pinaud.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Raymond Sidney-Smith 0:24<br>Welcome, gentlemen, and welcome to our listeners to this episode of ProductivityCast. In this cast, what we&#8217;re going to be doing today is having a little bit of a debate, as we do every week. But today, we&#8217;re gonna be kind of debating the the notion of, should you do what you love as a career, and, and having a bit of a discussion around this notion of, you know, career satisfaction, career fulfillment, and productivity, there is a there is a, an overlap there, if you have like the Venn diagram of career satisfaction and productivity and, and that space there, we&#8217;re going to really dive into that sliver. For us. This topic was developed by Francis. So Francis, what made you think of this topic, and what what brought it to mind,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Francis Wade 1:16<br>something I read that pointed out that people who do what they love, especially in the nonprofit sector, can often result in burnout or end up in burnout. And it&#8217;s because they, they love what they do so much that they end up tipping their work life balance, or work life integration in a way that&#8217;s not fruitful. So they put up with 60 70 hour 80 hour work weeks pursuing a passion or a cause, or, you know, altruistic motive, you know, you could be trying to save the whales. And because you&#8217;re so committed to saving the whales, you then end up working 80 hours. So your body doesn&#8217;t care whether you&#8217;re saving the whales, or selling real estate, or doing doing multi level marketing or your body doesn&#8217;t care, when you&#8217;re putting in the 80 hours of work. It feels the brunt anyway. And it talks about the need for people who are nonprofit, and who are altruistic to also seek this kind of balance. But it made me think, in general, when I was a, like a center, entering the professional world, or sort of establishing myself in the 90s, I remember a book that&#8217;s entitled, do what you love, and the money will follow. If it wasn&#8217;t a book, it was an article. And this was highly debated, you know that there was a kind of a almost quasi religious belief that if you could just find what you love, and then put all of your eggs in the basket, then the universe would magically come to your rescue and provide you with bottom line profits. And that that that also is one of the Genesis, I think, why we&#8217;re having this compensation, because there is that thought out there. And there are many sides to this coin. So that&#8217;s, that&#8217;s, that&#8217;s, I guess, what, what the core of the matter is, is it true? Should it be pursued? Is it different for different people? Or is there just a practical hard market reality here? And it&#8217;s nothing to do with the Whoo,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Raymond Sidney-Smith 3:20<br>I definitely have a copy of that book sitting on my shelf right here in view. 1980 1989. So, yeah, so let&#8217;s let&#8217;s start off with what is the reason for having a career that you enjoy? In in parlance today, we&#8217;re calling it love, but we can call it fulfillment or satisfaction or what have you. But what is the what is the reason for doing that? And again, I&#8217;m, I want to really stay in the lens of personal productivity here for purposes of being productive, that is time to task, project energy, those types of management&#8217;s of oneself. What&#8217;s the What&#8217;s the reason? What&#8217;s the goal? If you want to be more productive to love what you do? What&#8217;s the argument there?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Augusto Pinaud 4:09<br>When do you look at what you do or don&#8217;t do? And you&#8217;re looking at from the lens specific of the productivity, it comes to be really, really important? What do you do? The reason of, I believe, is if you don&#8217;t enjoy what you do, it is really hard to be productive. You know, if you get kind of when I work with productivity with my coaching clients, okay? And you look at the stuff that they procrastinate the stuff that is on their list for years. Some of them you wonder, okay, why this has been there for years. The reason is, I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t enjoy it. I know. There are many reasons on that and all of them are the comes to this is something that I&#8217;m not passionate or afraid to it. So if you get a career where you have zero passion, okay? Can you do it? Yeah, can you be good at it? Yes? Can you be your best at it? No, it&#8217;s not, I don&#8217;t believe is possible. I believe that component, that passion component, it&#8217;s really, really a key to attain a high level of productivity. And to attain a balance happy life on that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Francis Wade 5:37<br>If you love what you do, you&#8217;re more likely to be really, really good at it. At some point, you&#8217;re more likely to invest the hard hours and the learning and the self training and the evaluations, you&#8217;re more likely to develop yourself. And in that direction, I think that&#8217;s as an endpoint everyone would agree. And there&#8217;s actually a study that I just put up in the show notes, it shows multiple levels of motivation. And the most motivated person is the one who does what they do, because they love it only because they love it, and not because of the outputs, or because of the potential or because of the money or because of the peer pressure, or because of the inertia. So those, the lists that I just gave are the other reasons why people do their jobs. And they&#8217;re all lesser than, than the actual love of the work itself, which is the highest highest in this particular article, some research done from the 1980s. But, but and here&#8217;s the big, but what we learned back in the day, 1989, as he said, puts the cart before the horse, according to people like Ken Newport. And I think it&#8217;s true from my observation also, which is that even though that&#8217;s the end point, and even though we could agree that that&#8217;s the ideal, the harder question is, how do you get from here to there. And that&#8217;s where that that that that I think, is really interesting and counter intuitive. And that&#8217;s where we&#8217;ve learned that the message of the 1989 book doesn&#8217;t bear out in practice,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Augusto Pinaud 7:09<br>I there is some old saying that says, the most dangerous guy on the field is the guy who is having fun, and I wish to tell you who said that, and but I have believed that, you know, and I have seen it in practice, you know, many, many years ago, when I was, you know, in the, in the sales in the active sales for electronic world, as a sales manager, you could see who were the guys having fun in the field, and the level of success, and it was really correlation. And I over the years, keep that on the front of the mind. Because I have seen clients and friends and business partners, those that are having fun, okay tend to be more productive tend to be, you know, more passionate about what they do tend to be much better about the work they are doing, tend to be stellar about the results they&#8217;re getting. I don&#8217;t know, I don&#8217;t think you know, that Field of Dreams, or the book, you know, building on day will come, it works. But what I can tell you is the people I have seen, build it without that passion, eventually walk away. that built the business build the career. Either way, it is really a tough thing to do. When you have no passion. And I, I agree that the numbers are against you. But the numbers are against you doesn&#8217;t matter what you do. If you said, Well, I&#8217;m going to be an engineer, how many engineers are on the streets, that is going to make a difference for you to be the number one, you may or may not. But if you don&#8217;t have the patience, the passion, you will, you most likely will not have the stamina to push that long enough to at least be able to aim on the top part,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Raymond Sidney-Smith 9:04<br>I will direct everybody&#8217;s attention to a really amazing speech than Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Gave called the street sweeper speech. And what he talks about, he happened to be talking talking to some inner city kids, and trying to educate them about this notion, which is that no matter what you do in life, if you do it with a sense of excellence, then you will you will be fulfilled, that you will feel good about your place and role in society. And, and I&#8217;ve always held to this notion that if I&#8217;m going to be a dishwasher, or if I&#8217;m going to be a lawyer, I&#8217;m going to practice both of those crafts with a standard of excellence, which means that no matter what I&#8217;m doing, I&#8217;m going to be challenged to do my best. And if you think about it from that perspective, being productive in that environment is identifying activities that you can improve, you can optimize. And as long as you&#8217;re engaged, you&#8217;re challenged in those ways, then you&#8217;ll be motivated. I was I was talking before we started recording about, you know, my ongoing theory is that challenge is motivation. In the sense that there is a standard, there&#8217;s a level of challenge, or you could call it friction, or whatever you want to, but there is some kind of amount of energy necessary to be pushing against you, for you to then want to use that energy differently. And it&#8217;s like complacency, right is a form of discomfort. And we just get challenged, we get challenged to do things. So anyway, my point is, is that we all need a certain amount of challenge, and we can create our own challenge. So in the dishwasher example, you could plan to clean the dishes cleaner than any other dishwasher, you can create a little competition, right? You can, you can plan to clean dishes faster, or, at the end of the evening, when you&#8217;ve got to mop the floors and close up the equipment, you could see how quickly you can get that done up to the level of standard necessary, right, because it&#8217;s not about compromising on quality, it&#8217;s about being able to figure out how to do it in ways that are highly optimal. So you can, you can really just hate the job. But love what you&#8217;re doing. Because of the challenge you create in that environment. And the same thing with being a lawyer, right, being a lawyer is not all that fun, sometimes. But you can create all kinds of interesting challenge, you know, you can take on engaging cases, if you have latitude in your company to be able to do that in the firm that you work for. You can you can specialize in different areas of law and and therefore find particular aspects of the law that you want to really focus on. So on either side of the coin, no matter what life gives you. The streetsweeper speech has really fundamentally always spoken to me in that sense that I don&#8217;t really need to do what I love if my job pays the bills, I happen to be really lucky in the world. And I happen to be able to do what I love. But I don&#8217;t think everybody does. Nor does everybody. I have a dear friend who is a bureaucrat, and and has been his entire career. And I can&#8217;t imagine that he loves what he does. I don&#8217;t know that he&#8217;s explicitly said that he doesn&#8217;t. But you&#8217;re talking about a highly productive person who works in the government. Like, this is not enough of an oxymoron. And yet, here we are with someone who really does. They care about what they do. I don&#8217;t think they love their job. But they care about what they&#8217;re doing. They care about the purpose of what they&#8217;re doing. And so this leads me to my next kind of thought in question for you guys. Which is, when we talk about a career, is it the same as when we&#8217;re talking about a profession, a job, vocation avocation hobby, or otherwise? Like, what&#8217;s the difference between doing what you love there and being productive there and say, for example, having a side hustle, where you might be highly productive in that environment, and potentially not as productive at work, you&#8217;re just kind of treading water,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Francis Wade 13:48<br>I put up a DAG diagram. It&#8217;s a four part Venn diagram. It&#8217;s pretty popular, but there&#8217;s a circle that says that which you love. There&#8217;s one that says that which the world needs. There&#8217;s one which says that&#8217;s what you can be paid for another one, which says that which you are good at. And then it has a sweet spot where all four of them combined. I think that what you&#8217;re asking is can you live a life which has multiple kinds of fulfillment? And I think, yes, money is one part if you can pay the bills, and love what you do. That&#8217;s those are good, but I think there&#8217;s also things that you&#8217;re good at, there&#8217;s things that you&#8217;re curious about, there&#8217;s things that the world actually needs at a very high level because arguably the street sweeper, if he or she only stays at the level of street sweeping would make a profound difference in the world in their street sweeping by itself. They could take it to a whole nother level and go into sanitary the sanitary waste the street for cleans streets and take it to, you know, take the training and they could expand on the whole concept and take it to a whole nother level. But I think what you&#8217;re saying is, does it? Is it helpful to think of fulfillment as a kind of this Venn diagram with a spend diagram says, and or implies that there are multiple ways to think about fulfillment. And the richer they are, kind of the more fun it is. Because no, no, it&#8217;s really a multi multi part game, it&#8217;s not just a game of getting enough money to feed my kids, you know, that&#8217;s a very simple game. And when life reduces to that kind of basic level, it&#8217;s not a lot of fun, right? But we were no, you know, here in 2020 20, we are capable of thinking of fulfillment in multiple dimensions, and paying attention to fulfillment in all these dimensions. And, you know, we&#8217;re lucky we have the resources, the internet, which can allow us to find people who are have all these different kinds of commitments that we have, and we can nurture them with good time blocking techniques, right, we can actually invest in them. And we need not, we need not live a life that is sort of collapsed and surrendered, like, the person that you mentioned, remind me of reminds me of a couple of, I hate to say this, and I don&#8217;t mean to put down civil servants. But it I have found the culture echoed in the civil service where people say, you know, I&#8217;m just holding on to retirement. And as long as I get my check, I&#8217;m good. I don&#8217;t care what they tell me, I don&#8217;t care whether I like it or not, I don&#8217;t care how long I stay, I don&#8217;t care. They basically turned off all these other switches that were trying to turn on in this conversation. And they sound a bit resigned, the sound very resigned. And I remember running into a friend of mine from college about 15 years ago. And I remember when he was alive, and he loved oceanography, you know, and he ended up not pursuing it, because there wasn&#8217;t enough money in it, he ended up pursuing another another profession altogether. And when I saw him, he was in a part of the government that was deadening. And he said, You know, I don&#8217;t really like the job and record I&#8217;m doing and didn&#8217;t give up the Austin iographer. To do this. Instead, I&#8217;m just holding on to retirement, because I get a really good pension. And I saw my friend who I remember as a college student, who was so alive with possibility. I know saw him as someone who had lost his way. So there&#8217;s that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Raymond Sidney-Smith 17:43<br>Yeah, so I have a couple comments there. And just to play devil&#8217;s advocate, which is one. So one is clarification. So the the, the diagram you were talking about, for folks who want we&#8217;ll place this an image of this in the show notes, the comparison, but there&#8217;s something called Iki guy and the Iki guy is roughly translated in Japanese two reason for being there is a lotus diagram that was developed by Mark Wynne and Dan Buettner, the gentleman who, who did the research on the Blue Zones, the notion here is that he built out this the Lotus version of the diagram, and kind of expand expands upon that notion of the four circle diagram for purposes of, of reason for being and it shows where, you know, a vocation and those kinds of things really develop in your world based on what earns you money, what you love, what you&#8217;re good at, and what the world needs. And so, really, it&#8217;s about contribution. And so, the, so there&#8217;s that, and so you can go, you can go check that out. And it&#8217;s really, really interesting to look at that diagram and understand where things fit based on the overlap of those four ovals. So, then, to to the argument that Francis is making, I will say, I will say this, that people have other interests in their life outside of their job, you are not your job, and I&#8217;ll give you a reason why I was really wrapped up in the identity of, you know, my prior position, the prior company that I owned, and, and when that ended, and the the, the title was no longer mine, right in the sense that I was no longer in this industry. And I was no longer in this position in this community. Because I you know, just that was it. That was the end of the those the end of the road for me in that space. It was extremely depressing. And I just want people to recognize that if you get too wrapped up in a particular career, especially nowadays, when we change Career so often, we should be more aware of our, our functional skills than we should our our roles and the the larger kind of macro look at a single career we&#8217;re going to have, you know, most people are going to have multiple careers in their lives. And when you retire, for example, I hope that all of you listening, get that opportunity, when that happens, or at least have the ability to you know, some people don&#8217;t want to retire. But you know, you want to continue doing things. And when you when you changed from being in your say active career and decide to then retire, you don&#8217;t want to lose purpose and meaning in life because of this arbitrary titled that you&#8217;ve that you&#8217;ve assumed you want to be. And you want to be able to use the skills you have productively in whatever pursuit you have. That&#8217;s my argument. And I think that if you can do that, then it doesn&#8217;t matter what you&#8217;re doing. And to kind of the point you were making Francis about the the friend you had who kind of didn&#8217;t have a passion. I think that finding passion doesn&#8217;t have to be found in the thing that pays you. And for, say, for example, the the street sweeper, or the or the dishwasher, for example. that argument actually is more insidious, because it tells people that, and I know that you didn&#8217;t mean this, but I mean, it somewhat tells people that they don&#8217;t have a place in society that&#8217;s valuable, not and that wasn&#8217;t your argument, I believe your argument was that to the effect that they didn&#8217;t feel like they were contributing in a way. And that by itself may not be satisfying. But if you if you say that, that people don&#8217;t have purpose and meaning in the, in the grander objectives of society, that is, is somewhat demeaning to the, to the role of that individual. And I&#8217;ll give an example. You know, I&#8217;m, I&#8217;m working with a particular client who is doing some really amazing things in the world. And I&#8217;m a small cog in that. But that I can be a part of it, by helping him means that I&#8217;m contributing to this much grander goal in the world. And so everybody needs, the dishes washed, everybody needs, the garbage taken, those roles contribute because of interdependence on the planet. And so we cannot disregard any small role as being not worthwhile doing. And I hope that people who maybe think that their role is insignificant remembers that they&#8217;re playing that role in the larger quilt, of moving forward the mission and vision of their organization or of society generally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Francis Wade 23:01<br>So So Cal Newport offers an amazing rebuttal. So he says, Do not Do not wait around basically, to find this passion as if it will light upon you, like the sun shining from over the over the rooftops into your eyes, that you that you&#8217;re on purpose. No, he says, do what you do, and find purpose and passion in it. And I can see from my, for my experience, firsthand experience, that that&#8217;s exactly what happened in my case, and it happened unexpectedly. And it&#8217;s it. It&#8217;s transferable. it&#8217;s scalable, is what he says in his book, I think, or as we read it, that anyone even the street, the street keeper, that street sweeper that we&#8217;re talking about. So we may we may look from the outside and George and say, you know, he, he or she doesn&#8217;t add huge value. And you know, they&#8217;re playing a very small role. And it&#8217;s so minor that it doesn&#8217;t really matter in the scheme of things. I read his book and I say, well, that&#8217;s nonsense. There is a there is a level that someone and I wrote an article. I remember she put in the show notes about a plumber that I knew, and he&#8217;s passed away now. But this guy came to my house and I actually knew him from prior incarnation prior relationship. didn&#8217;t even remember he was a plumber up until I was referred to him and so yeah, I know that guy. So he comes to the house right? And he gives me an exposition on plumbing. That was fascinating. know, somebody may say, Well, he&#8217;s just a plumber. No, I don&#8217;t believe there&#8217;s any Justin anything. I believe that what Cal Newport says is true. You can. You can carve and create and find expertise anywhere, if you have the willingness to do so and if you are willing to work, which is the way I think he puts it, If you&#8217;re willing to fall in love, then it doesn&#8217;t really matter where you start. And if you think it&#8217;s the other way around, he says you&#8217;re wrong. If you think you have to find the love first, and then you will do the work to discover its intricacies. He said, It doesn&#8217;t work that way. I thought that was fascinating, because it match my my experience, personal experience, and the experience of this plumber.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Raymond Sidney-Smith 25:23<br>I will say that I I think we&#8217;re saying the same things. Because I, while don&#8217;t always agree with Professor Newport, as you know, regarding certain things, I do you agree on this, that passion is actually something that develops over time, it is not something that you have before you started. And this is this is akin to the idea that people are motivated by other things by other drivers then then then challenge when it comes to say a career or by a, a function that they that they satisfy most people in, in the productive sense, are, are motivated by challenge. And, and when they don&#8217;t have that challenge. That&#8217;s when things are mundane, and then they don&#8217;t want to do things. And the same thing with passion. Passion, actually, is a a lagging factor. It&#8217;s not a leading factor. That is I think we&#8217;re saying the same things here. I think that you know, when the when it comes to following your passion, it should be living into the passion, a little bit of a corollary to Rainer Maria Wilkie. So I&#8217;m right there with you<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Augusto Pinaud 26:32<br>coming a little bit back to what you were saying at the beginning. I think there is an important decision I&#8217;m coming to making here. jus can do. I the problem for me is not if you work your passion, pay if you can find and work your passion, great. I know people who do job who are not their passion, but they are using whatever this job produce income, prestige, time, whatever it is, to pursue their passion, and they don&#8217;t want to keep their passion, but they have the passion. The issue I found is the people who have no, that who have lost the pursue of that passion is fine. If you decide to do you know the job, hey, I can you are going to do you know, street sweeper because, but at the end of the week, again, you go and now you volunteer because that&#8217;s what is your passion. But you don&#8217;t want to do that. in your day to day, that&#8217;s awesome. The problem comes when you assess if you can&#8217;t or don&#8217;t want to make your passion, your work your day to day living. And you go to the job, and you forgot about that passion component. And that is the people I was referring at the beginning. And I suddenly know a lot of them that come on have this work, they may be good even, but they are never going to be their best not a dad. And you come and you ask them, you know, what is what you do after? And they come why&#8217;d you know, I had a client once who came and told me Well, my favorite thing is running. Great. So what do you do for running? After you get out of work? Oh, I have run not run, I haven&#8217;t run for the last three years. So that this connection as obviously as it was for this person when she explained it to me, it is what I seen a lot of people experienced Yes, they have the job who cover the bills who do that, but it do not produce anything. And what they are suddenly experiences is a really, really slow death, where they lost that pursue for the passion, that excitement and then just now try to kind of turn into an automaton who go eight to five do what they need to do. But they have not in they&#8217;re not anywhere else. Any kind of passion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Raymond Sidney-Smith 29:10<br>Yeah, I think I think what you&#8217;re talking about absolutely fits into the the core of of the discussion here, which is when in doubt, understand that you can find mastery in your career in a job role. And you can find it outside of that job role. But the goal is to keep looking for something that you can be skilled at and find that type of mastery there. And that will lead to general life fulfillment, not necessarily career fulfillment. I want us to close out our conversation with some action for our listeners, that is to say, What can What Can someone listening do from an action perspective to say change that trajectory of their career or find a different career if this one isn&#8217;t fulfilling or satisfying? or what have you, what can they do to either love what they do as a career, or at least find fulfillment? Life or, or at least some kind of productive fulfillment?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Augusto Pinaud 30:22<br>The first thing I will, I will say is where are you in this and I&#8217;m understanding I&#8217;m oversimplifying this interest groups, you know, the group who do their, their passion for a living the group who worked on have a passion or the group of work and have no passion. Okay, where are you? Where do you think you spend most of your time in which of those three boxes and identify that, and obviously, if you find yourself into that last box, okay, if you find that yourself into that place where well, I am, you know, I am doing the work and I go to work, but I don&#8217;t have anything else after that, and I don&#8217;t have a passion for this, well begin to going back into that, you know, when there&#8217;s a product that I create called impact gernon. And the impact journal came from me coaching clients that get to a point that I call success that tastes like failure. You look at these people from the outside and they are successful, their careers, they are okay, they they are relatively successful. But when you talk to them, they are dead inside, they have no passion, they have lost connection with passion, and, and they are really in pain. And they are now not only in pain, but they have no passion, and they&#8217;re afraid to leave. So, if you are there, there are many solutions to that it may not make as Francis was saying at the beginning, it may not substitute the income you can you are making but we can get you back into the meaning into the happiness into compensate a little bit more what you are having there. If you are obviously in the second group, make sure that is making you know leaving but have this passion outside and they have zero interest on compensate, see how you can permeate more of that passion into the work. He doesn&#8217;t need to mean, change and pursue that as a full time. But sometimes he&#8217;s Okay, can I do? Can I get bring a little bit of this passion into work? Can I you know, if you volunteer and you love volunteering, Okay, can I convince my company to volunteer in the things that I&#8217;d love to. So those two things bring you more closer to that and create a less black and white distinction between one another that at the end from the productivity aspect will make you a much more productive and a much more happy person? Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Francis Wade 33:12<br>In terms of practical advice, I agree with everything almost to say. And I would add the added a diagram in the show notes from the the Harvard article referred to ranging from inertia to play. And what I would recommend that folks do is one look at this, just draw an inventory of their life, and see where they are in the continuum. And how much play there is and where it is. And you know, all the different all the different levels go, they could go through each year of their life and say, this one is that level play this one is that level inertia, this one is here and just tell the truth, do an accurate accounting of the different areas of their life and how engaging they are. I think that would open up VISTAs because obviously we we all want to have as much love and play in our life as we can. That&#8217;s That&#8217;s a true. And there are folks who don&#8217;t have any at all. Most of us are in between. But I think what Cal newports book is pointing to is a skill. It&#8217;s a lifelong skill. And I&#8217;ve met people who are in their 90s, who have an attitude 93 or 94. And he&#8217;s always looking to pick up new knowledge and new skills. So this is a this is not a terminal frame of mine. This is more of a life orientation. And if you possess it, and if you develop it to this very high, keen level, the technology that exists allows us to pick any topic, any area of our life, anything, anything we wish and take it to the next level if that&#8217;s what we want to do. But not everyone knows that they can do that. So I&#8217;ve met lots of people who would say, you know, I&#8217;m interested In this area when asked the next question, oh, what kinds of things are you looking at in that area? They say nothing. I said, I thought you were interested in it. Yeah, but I&#8217;m too busy. Or I don&#8217;t know how to do this, or I can&#8217;t afford that, or I can&#8217;t even get started or, in other words, they don&#8217;t have the skill of making the pursuit of that which they love a priority. And I think that skill is one that is life energizing, and life transforming.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Augusto Pinaud 35:33<br>That you just described, Francis, how he gets connected, unrelated to what Dr. Carol Dweck calls the mindset. And on the book mindset, you know, about the growth mindset. And if these people, you know, part of the issue is they lack a growth mindset, so they understand what they have, or the skills they have, and that&#8217;s the only thing they they know what to add, while a person with some more grown mindset will be able and will be open to continue that learning process open. And, and I wonder if that is also a big factor into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Raymond Sidney-Smith 36:16<br>So I will give a little bit of a description of an exercise that you can do. And this all comes down to some some work around the the notion of job crafting, and it is making these these kinds of modifications to your current world, career wise or otherwise, in order to be able to, to, you know, just increase fulfillment in what you&#8217;re doing. And so this, this is actually based on three different pieces, the tasks you&#8217;re accomplishing the relationships you have, and the perceptions you have about the work you&#8217;re doing. Think about the tasks you&#8217;re doing in your job, and assessing whether or not those things are ones in which you can elevate, can you take on new duties? Can you take on, you know, some other particular thing? Can you do more of that or less of something else, and expanding or or, you know, minimizing the scope of the work you&#8217;re doing. Then, of course, my whole notion of really excellence, right was upping the standard on what you&#8217;re doing. So you&#8217;re able to sustain the task paradigm. And then there&#8217;s the relationship paradigm, which is, can you It says here, I&#8217;m going to link to an article on Harvard Business, Harvard Business reviews website. And it says, quote, you can change the nature or extent of your interactions with others. A Managing Director, for example, might create mentoring relationships with young associates as a way to connect with and teach those who represent the future of the firm and quote, and then there are the perceptions, which is of course, changing how you think about your job, and or certain aspects of the job. Again, the the notion here is that you may just be really upset about the way in which you are treated in an organization. But in reality, what might be happening is that you&#8217;re highly valued. But perhaps you just have an annoying personality. And, and you may not think you have an annoying personality, but those are always the people who have annoying personalities, right? Because they don&#8217;t, they aren&#8217;t aware of it. And so we have to, we have to take a little bit of introspection, and perhaps a paradigm shift about where and what we are valued for in an organization. And that gives us opportunities to develop to change to grow in those skills. Because you can say, Okay, well, perhaps I&#8217;m annoying because I care about details. And other people around me are visionary thinkers. So how do I speak better to visionary thinkers? And that way, I&#8217;m not as annoying to them, right? And that that frustration, that conflict orientation, then gives you an opportunity to actually grow and be more productive with those people, while still holding true holding authentically to who you are. You&#8217;re growing as a person. So those three pieces, tasks, relationships, and perceptions, how do you be in right relationship with those pieces in your career, and that&#8217;s, that&#8217;s really, at least in this HBr perspective, the the notion behind job crafting, so hopefully, you all have gotten some value out of thinking about should you do what you love as a career, or avocation or hobby or otherwise? And starting to think about this from a little bit more productive perspective,<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Francis Wade 39:40<br>the tendency for anyone, and this is loops back to the conversation, they the conversation we started in the beginning, the reason for the show, they the idea that I shared about people who are mission driven and basically working too long and too hard because they believe that They are on a huge mission. I think there&#8217;s a danger here is to collapse or thinking or, or commitments into any one dimension only, and not not pay attention to all of them at the same time. I know it&#8217;s harder to do that. And society would you know, there&#8217;s, I interviewed someone the other day, who basically said that the reason that what he was saying was true is because somebody earned a billion, several billion dollars using it. And that&#8217;s all that people needed to know is that that level of financial success was proof that that worked. And I had to, you know, in midstream interview basically say, well as people who don&#8217;t have that as the number one motive, and they would measure it completely differently. And his person said, Oh, yeah, I agree. But his his head was stuck in that there&#8217;s one measure of success, and fulfillment. And that is not true anymore, that that folks who are who have that mindset end up doing damage to themselves and others and ultimately, to society. I think<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Raymond Sidney-Smith 41:08<br>I couldn&#8217;t agree more. I couldn&#8217;t agree more. Well, this has been a really fun conversation. So thank you, gentlemen. And the the conversation doesn&#8217;t have to end. So if you have a comment that you&#8217;d like to join in this conversation about this cast, or something that we just discussed today, feel free to head over to the podcast website, we invite you to jump over there to ProductivityCast dotnet forward slash the three digit episode number, so 001002, and so forth, those are the episode numbers, go ahead and just go to ProductivityCast dotnet, forward slash and then that number, you&#8217;ll be taken to the episode page, and there at the bottom of the page, you can leave a comment, you can leave a question, and one of us will be glad to respond. There. Also on productivitycast.net, you&#8217;ll find the show notes for each episode, which includes a machine generated transcript. So you can scan through and just find points in the conversation if you needed to. You&#8217;ll also find links to anything that we discussed, and a downloadable version, actually of the transcript as well. You can learn how to follow any of us or learn more about any of us there, and also how to subscribe through that&#8217;s following us through your favorite podcast app, you can find how to do that there on the website as well. There&#8217;s a whole page dedicated to it. If you have any questions about personal productivity, and you&#8217;d like us to tackle that topic here on ProductivityCast, please feel free to go to ProductivityCast dotnet, forward slash contact. And you can go ahead and leave a voice recorded message or you can type a message to us. And we&#8217;ll get that and we&#8217;ll consider it for a future episode. And so thank you for those contributions coming in. And so that&#8217;s that&#8217;s it I&#8217;ve got just thanks for stopping out and and Francis, wait for joining me here on this cast. If you can, please leave a rating review on Apple podcasts or Stitcher or whatever podcast app you use that allows ratings and reviews. Thank you for doing that. And that really helps us to grow our personal productivity listening community. And so we appreciate you doing that. This brings us to the close of ProductivityCast the weekly show about all things personal productivity, take care, here&#8217;s your productive life everybody.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Voiceover Artist 43:24<br> And that&#8217;s it for this ProductivityCast, the weekly show about all things productivity, with your hosts, Ray Sidney-Smith and Augusto Pinaud with Francis Wade and Art Gelwicks.<\/p>\n\n\n<p><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/productivitycast.net\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/5\/2020\/09\/091-should-you-do-what-you-love-as-a-career-productivitycast_otter.ai_.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Download a PDF of raw, text transcript of the interview here<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>What is the reason for having a career that you enjoy (or \u201clove\u201d)? 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