021 - Digital Decluttering - ProductivityCast

021 Digital Decluttering – ProductivityCast

Clutter is a pernicious problem for many people. And, so is its cousin, digital clutter. Across your many desktop and mobile devices now prevalent in daily life, we house files piled high (metaphorically speaking) that as Art Gelwicks aptly notes, lives on “without a clearly defined purpose.” Clearly this is a complicated issue and the ProductivityCast team has a healthy debate about the practicality of managing our digital worlds, and what awaits us in the future for digital information management. Join us for this fascinating discussion into digital clutter and the need to do digital decluttering.

This is surely a topic we’ll revisit in the future, as the more information we have about us living both locally on our systems and in the cloud grows, almost exponentially.

Enjoy! Give us feedback! And, thanks for listening!

If you’d like to discuss this episode, please click here to leave a comment down below (this jumps you to the bottom of the post). What are your thoughts on your digital information and performing any kind of digital decluttering? Do you suffer from digital clutter? Or, do you have a particular area where you manage your digital information well (say, at work), but very poorly elsewhere (like, home digital photo organization)? You can comment below, or let us know via our contact form (audio or text) and we’ll be glad to help as best as we can in a future episode.

In this Cast

Ray Sidney-Smith

Augusto Pinaud

Francis Wade

Art Gelwicks

Show Notes

Resources we mention, including links to them will be provided here. Please listen to the episode for context.

Trello for Mac

Evernote

IFTTT

Amazon Kindle e-Readers

Survivorman

Instapaper

Pinterest

Minimalism (documentary)

ProdPod: Episode 68–Digital Clutter: Out of Sight Is Not Out of Mind

Otixo

MultCloud

OneNote

Google Drive

Dropbox

Getting Things Done by David Allen

Raw Text Transcript

Raw, unedited and machine-produced text transcript so there may be substantial errors, but you can search for specific points in the episode to jump to, or to reference back to at a later date and time, by keywords or key phrases. The time coding is h:mm:ss.ms to h:mm:ss.ms (e.g., 0:00:00.000,0:00:04.000 starts at 0.00 seconds and ends at 4 seconds in the cast’s audio).

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are you ready to manage your work and

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personal world better to live a

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fulfilling productive life then you’ve

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come to the right place

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productivity cast the weekly show about

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all things productivity here are your

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hosts Ray Sidney-Smith and Augusto

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Pinaud Francis Wade and art Gelwicks

[read more=”Read more” less=”Read less”]

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welcome back everybody to another

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episode of productivity casts this is

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episode 21 and so we are in full steam

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ahead and how are you guys doing how are

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you guys doing today doing well this

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morning’s good weekend busy weekend

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productive well that was productive as

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I’d like but a good weekend everybody’s

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doing well I think good I was on travel

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this weekend and because of work I had

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to be in New York and so I’m still

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adjusting to the hecticness of the

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weekend being somewhat personal you know

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social stuff and then trying to get all

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the work stuff in so for those listeners

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who have to deal with that know that

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you’re not alone there there is that

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balancing act that you have to have so

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in the news this this past week and by

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the time this is out and recording it

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it’ll have been about a month Trello has

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come out with a desktop application for

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the Mac and so it’s had mobile

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applications for quite some time now on

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iOS and Android and has been a primarily

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web-based application and for those

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listeners who don’t know Trello is owned

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by Atlassian and which also owns HipChat

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and several other products but they were

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purchased us maybe last year early this

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year by them and so I was curious your

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reactions gentlemen regarding web

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applications that are choosing to create

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desktop applications and in reality you

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know the desktop application is probably

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just a shell the web app with some some

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fancier tie-ins to some of the desktop

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components but it just gives you a an

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icon in the taskbar and how that affects

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people’s productivity when they might

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have many boards open in their browser

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versus having a desktop application

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where the tabs the boards are open

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inside of a desktop application I think

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is a matter to expand

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your target market more than anything

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the reality is that it will not make a

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significant difference having the web

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browser first having the local

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application but for certain people of a

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certain age it feels like it’s real

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first asad of what I’m saying sound for

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certain people the web and online and

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all that as we understand it for for the

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techie point it’s not mainstream and it

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doesn’t give them the idea of a solid

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application even when you go to

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corporate Trello is making their way you

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know especially into development and the

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agile work and all that and for some

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corporations they need to have the feel

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that they can control where the stop and

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where the stuff goes so giving them or

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giving them access to on an actual

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application may give them a push into a

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corporate world where is that there is

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an impression that just online is not

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secure enough I don’t think it’s gonna

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add a whole lot to the individual user

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experience I don’t think they the person

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sitting is at his computer trying to be

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more productive is going to experience

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any mega boost in productivity as a

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result I think I agree I think it’s four

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with what gusto said I think it’s four

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not marketing but reasons of

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implementation I think that’s the

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primary I imagine that’s the primary

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driver as opposed to really changing the

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user as experience yeah I don’t I don’t

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know that I totally agree with its being

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on the marketing side of the equation

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with it lasya n– having purchased

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Trello and their presence within the the

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enterprise environment having an

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application at the desktop level gives

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them a much more compelling footprint to

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get Trello into environments where being

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a web only solution isn’t all that

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endearing to the companies because that

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does happen a lot of larger legacy

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companies the other aspect though is

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just purely from the user side because

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it’s on the desktop level they’re able

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to in

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more functionalities such as lots more

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desktop shortcuts or keyboard shortcuts

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rather which keeping in mind that tools

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like Trello do have a habit of being

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used by more technical people they tend

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to gravitate towards more keyboard

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shortcuts therefore their catering to

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this particular audience I don’t I have

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to agree though I don’t think you’re

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gonna see a major upswing in Trello

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adoption just because they have a

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desktop it’s more of a price to play in

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the space but it’s still a nice feature

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for them to add in the the interesting

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thing that I found about the change was

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the desktop application from the very

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cursory review of it that I’ve done so

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far I’ve installed it and started

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playing around with it because I do use

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Trello with regard to collaborative

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project management for some projects and

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the keyboard shortcuts are different

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than the web versions to a slight extent

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that creates some challenges for a user

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when they’re very used to the web

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application so those kinds of conflicts

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are kind of interesting to me

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I think that’s hitting on a really key

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point of this as well and it’s not

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Trello specific but any time and I’ll

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admit OneNote is probably one of the

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biggest culprits of this the

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inconsistency between functionality at

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the desktop level and the web can really

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make large scale adoption and even

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consistent adoption of these tools a

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challenge because you expect to find the

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functionality in both places and you

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don’t and it makes it difficult yeah

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agreed agreed

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so moving on into the topic of

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discussion for today we are going to be

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talking about digital decluttering in

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this cast and so the reality is is that

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I typically liken the idea of digital

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decluttering to people having

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overflowing inboxes and it doesn’t have

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to be that much email for it to be

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considered overflowing because it

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usually is about the temperament and the

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personality of the individual whose

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email INBOX they’re interacting with and

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so think about it from the perspective

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that if five emails are overwhelming to

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you five email messages are overwhelming

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to you then it’s overflowing

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and if 4,000 emails in your inbox

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doesn’t bother you or don’t bother you

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then

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perhaps you don’t need some digital de

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cluttering although if that were my

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email inbox

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it would be something that I would need

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to to deal and manage with and that’s

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just one example of the the wide variety

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of realities you know hardware is

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getting cheaper you know by the quarter

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in terms of being able to buy

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substantial amounts of not only physical

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Hardware you know that you’re that you

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own as well as leasing or subscribing to

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cloud storage in terms of space up in

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the web so we can now save much much

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more than we once were able to and I

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think that’s created a situation where

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we have a lot more data about ourselves

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being tracked and stacked in places and

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that’s an opportunity for us all to

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think about how we can use that data

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better and how we can really clean it up

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so that it’s more useful to us as well

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so I wanted to start off the

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conversation with you gentlemen about

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how you define digital declutter in your

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own practices in your own world

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well I’ll jump in before we define

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digital decluttering I think we need to

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define digital clutter and I think that

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varies depending on the individual my

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definition my personal one for digital

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clutter is any digital content that does

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not have a clearly defined purpose

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whether it’s archival copy whether it’s

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for future reference whether it’s for

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actionable content it’s it’s the stuff

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that just winds up being kept because

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we’re able to keep it with no impact

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there’s no value attached to the

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information it’s just there because it’s

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just as easy to hit archive or you know

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print to Google Drive as it is to think

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about it process it and delete it I

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think I agree with that definition that

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you said you give and not only i will

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add not only a purpose but a play i

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think one of the problems was how cheap

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is a storage this day is that we’ve not

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only lose the purpose but we also lose

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the place generally used to be time work

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hard drive in a computer was really

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precious space it’s not any you know

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online space was precious it’s not any

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and what happened with that is

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you not only don’t have the purpose for

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what this digital file is but you also

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have not a place so you can up with a

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place I mean a way to retrieve it if you

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really need it

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and final folder is not a way to

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retrieve it I see a more a sort of a

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basic problem here which is what I’ve

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taught them in I think there’s a

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metaphor at work here which is that a

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physical object is it becomes clutter

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when it it occupies our physical

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attention or space and it then becomes a

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distraction because of its nature but a

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file that is lying somewhere in my

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operating system or anywhere in my

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system that I created and then forgot

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about that that occupies I don’t know

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1/2 a mega memory it exists in digits it

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takes up bits and bytes but I have a you

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know I have a multi terabyte storage

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facility in the cloud and on my laptop

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or wherever the combination is huge it’s

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not causing the clutter that’s a piece

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of paper on my desk causes I think

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there’s a transition that we are sort of

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everyone is struggling to make which is

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the physical world the physical metaphor

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of thinking of digital a digital object

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as cluttering I don’t think we I think

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we’re trying to think of it the same way

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we think of physical objects and I don’t

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think they’re the same I think if we if

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we make this transition to this new way

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of thinking whatever it might be I think

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it would clarify a lot of the way we

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think about digital objects so I come at

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it from this sort of I guess philosophy

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that a digital object doesn’t by itself

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cause clutter because it can’t be found

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or it or it’s hidden somewhere I think

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there’s something else at play here that

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that’s kind of different from the

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physical world well let’s let’s parallel

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that for something to a second if we

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think about volume of content and

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material I don’t think any of us look at

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a museum or a library as cluttered

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although there’s a massive amount of

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information available there in content

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and assets we don’t look at it as

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cluttered because there’s an organized

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way to access all of it if you think of

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an attic you might think your attic is

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cluttered because if you go up there and

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look it’s hard to figure out where

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things are and what can you get to and

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how you get to it when you need to it so

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the term clutter really starts to apply

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not to physical or digital assets but

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the lack of a organized way to interface

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with those items in a timely and anat

0:11:28.840,0:11:32.170
manner I’ll be honest with you one of

0:11:30.370,0:11:34.300
the pet peeves I have is that people’s

0:11:32.170,0:11:36.730
natural reaction to this is I’ll just

0:11:34.300,0:11:38.320
keep everything and then you search and

0:11:36.730,0:11:42.220
that just drives me bonkers because

0:11:38.320,0:11:45.160
that’s that’s trusting a automated

0:11:42.220,0:11:46.780
system to do the organizational part of

0:11:45.160,0:11:49.330
the equation that you should be handling

0:11:46.780,0:11:50.470
and I have a big challenge with that for

0:11:49.330,0:11:51.640
people how do you know you found

0:11:50.470,0:11:53.770
everything how do you know you’re

0:11:51.640,0:11:55.270
getting everything eat back so when we

0:11:53.770,0:11:57.280
look at clutter again maybe you’re right

0:11:55.270,0:11:59.140
maybe we have to get away from the

0:11:57.280,0:12:00.340
metaphor of it being the objects and

0:11:59.140,0:12:01.960
we’re taking care of the objects and we

0:12:00.340,0:12:04.360
have to look at the organizational

0:12:01.960,0:12:07.690
system that wraps around the objects and

0:12:04.360,0:12:10.720
be able to define if I have 10,000

0:12:07.690,0:12:13.120
emails or 100 email how do I find the

0:12:10.720,0:12:14.770
things that I need I have a slightly

0:12:13.120,0:12:18.220
different perspective on it because I do

0:12:14.770,0:12:22.420
use a very very strong physical metaphor

0:12:18.220,0:12:26.380
for digital clutter and it’s because

0:12:22.420,0:12:29.230
your brain while we can hold massive

0:12:26.380,0:12:33.880
amounts of data we cannot recall it all

0:12:29.230,0:12:36.250
as easily and every piece of data that

0:12:33.880,0:12:38.920
you touch in your life has been in some

0:12:36.250,0:12:42.190
way shape or form written into a neural

0:12:38.920,0:12:45.430
pathway in your brain and when we do

0:12:42.190,0:12:48.160
that we create a strong sense of psychic

0:12:45.430,0:12:50.200
clutter that’s created from having lots

0:12:48.160,0:12:51.190
of digital clutter and that’s because

0:12:50.200,0:12:53.080
your brain can’t tell the difference

0:12:51.190,0:12:56.130
between a physical object and an object

0:12:53.080,0:12:58.540
that it thinks of we can imagine owning

0:12:56.130,0:13:01.000
hundreds of thousands of things millions

0:12:58.540,0:13:03.550
of things potentially and our brain sees

0:13:01.000,0:13:07.000
them the same so when we when we think

0:13:03.550,0:13:10.600
about digital clutter I think I agree on

0:13:07.000,0:13:13.600
the premise here that we need to have a

0:13:10.600,0:13:16.690
system for organizing but we also have

0:13:13.600,0:13:19.270
to have a mechanism for mental purging

0:13:16.690,0:13:20.920
that is even if we don’t get rid of the

0:13:19.270,0:13:23.019
the digital the

0:13:20.920,0:13:24.339
trade us if you want to call it that the

0:13:23.019,0:13:26.380
clutter itself is actually an

0:13:24.339,0:13:29.440
organizational problem but I think we

0:13:26.380,0:13:32.350
need to have a method for being able to

0:13:29.440,0:13:34.839
help reduce the the psychic overwhelm

0:13:32.350,0:13:37.209
that happens when you see all of that

0:13:34.839,0:13:40.930
data not withstanding so I think there

0:13:37.209,0:13:45.060
there’s just it’s a complex web of the

0:13:40.930,0:13:47.620
the inputs and how much you actually are

0:13:45.060,0:13:48.940
experiencing that data and how much

0:13:47.620,0:13:51.250
friction actually happens in your life

0:13:48.940,0:13:52.449
interacting with it I always joke about

0:13:51.250,0:13:55.060
the fact that you know I used to have

0:13:52.449,0:13:59.230
own 3.5 inch floppy diskettes you know

0:13:55.060,0:14:02.680
they had the 1.44 megabytes and at some

0:13:59.230,0:14:05.620
point in my history I could put all the

0:14:02.680,0:14:10.449
data I had in my life on a 3.5 inch

0:14:05.620,0:14:15.070
floppy diskette and today you know my

0:14:10.449,0:14:15.490
phone probably holds 20 mm maybe 44,000

0:14:15.070,0:14:18.579
now

0:14:15.490,0:14:21.370
micro floppies worth of data I mean it’s

0:14:18.579,0:14:23.110
just insane how much data we can hold

0:14:21.370,0:14:25.269
about ourselves and also the fact that

0:14:23.110,0:14:28.720
files are larger right so the same

0:14:25.269,0:14:32.110
photograph I took in 1995 is not the

0:14:28.720,0:14:34.329
same file that I took in 2015 it’s it’s

0:14:32.110,0:14:36.820
remarkably larger because it’s more

0:14:34.329,0:14:39.160
megapixels you know and and that higher

0:14:36.820,0:14:41.380
resolution has allowed for that file

0:14:39.160,0:14:44.949
size to to get much larger so I get that

0:14:41.380,0:14:47.019
but we do need to manage our data wisely

0:14:44.949,0:14:49.120
even when we have large amounts of cloud

0:14:47.019,0:14:51.760
storage space because if you go to a

0:14:49.120,0:14:54.160
thin client like a Chromebook or any of

0:14:51.760,0:14:56.320
the newer devices that are that are

0:14:54.160,0:14:57.970
slimming down the size of the hard drive

0:14:56.320,0:15:00.220
so that you’re accessing more

0:14:57.970,0:15:02.620
cloud-based items when you start to

0:15:00.220,0:15:04.510
download lots of those databases locally

0:15:02.620,0:15:06.399
for being able to say transfer and

0:15:04.510,0:15:08.199
otherwise move around data it becomes

0:15:06.399,0:15:11.079
very very difficult I deal with this a

0:15:08.199,0:15:13.390
lot with Evernote clients who have

0:15:11.079,0:15:15.699
Evernote and Evernote downloads you know

0:15:13.390,0:15:17.680
your entire Notes database to your

0:15:15.699,0:15:19.480
desktop most people can probably manage

0:15:17.680,0:15:21.880
having an Evernote database and the

0:15:19.480,0:15:24.100
couple of thousand maybe you know five

0:15:21.880,0:15:26.740
ten thousand notes at the at the upper

0:15:24.100,0:15:28.449
end to be able to manage most of their

0:15:26.740,0:15:31.480
world but people tend to keep pushing

0:15:28.449,0:15:33.200
and pushing every piece of datum into

0:15:31.480,0:15:35.660
there so

0:15:33.200,0:15:38.240
and then they have this huge data store

0:15:35.660,0:15:40.490
of useless data because they’re not

0:15:38.240,0:15:42.770
gonna ever look at it again and then

0:15:40.490,0:15:45.890
they’re then they you know have a 40

0:15:42.770,0:15:49.340
gigabyte Evernote database and moving

0:15:45.890,0:15:50.810
that is a beast so I just really feel

0:15:49.340,0:15:53.030
there needs to be a stewardship there

0:15:50.810,0:15:56.150
needs to be some control there over your

0:15:53.030,0:15:58.850
own data so that brings me to kind of my

0:15:56.150,0:16:02.450
next thought here which is when when do

0:15:58.850,0:16:05.030
you all feel the need to address digital

0:16:02.450,0:16:08.180
clutter and and when do you find it

0:16:05.030,0:16:11.120
necessary to declutter your digital

0:16:08.180,0:16:13.190
world or your clients digital worlds

0:16:11.120,0:16:14.690
well from a client perspective and I’ll

0:16:13.190,0:16:16.880
look at them first because it’s a

0:16:14.690,0:16:17.120
classic example of do as I say not as I

0:16:16.880,0:16:19.040
do

0:16:17.120,0:16:21.820
I recommend that they go through and

0:16:19.040,0:16:24.110
establish a standard process of

0:16:21.820,0:16:26.120
evaluation of content that’s going into

0:16:24.110,0:16:28.480
their system for retention how it’s

0:16:26.120,0:16:31.100
being tagged what’s the taxonomy and

0:16:28.480,0:16:33.410
establish a schedule of going through

0:16:31.100,0:16:35.660
and purging and archiving content that’s

0:16:33.410,0:16:37.610
not necessary now granted most

0:16:35.660,0:16:39.170
enterprise clients have that for

0:16:37.610,0:16:40.910
numerous reasons they’re illegal

0:16:39.170,0:16:42.860
retention reasons they’ll have it we’re

0:16:40.910,0:16:44.780
processing reasons and in many cases

0:16:42.860,0:16:47.210
they’ll have it for storage reasons too

0:16:44.780,0:16:49.820
they’ll put storage caps and in place so

0:16:47.210,0:16:52.160
from an enterprise standpoint usually IT

0:16:49.820,0:16:54.620
departments will establish a basic

0:16:52.160,0:16:56.960
governance structure around what and how

0:16:54.620,0:16:59.090
things will retain its when you get to

0:16:56.960,0:17:01.040
the individual level that the challenges

0:16:59.090,0:17:03.230
start to come into play because one it

0:17:01.040,0:17:06.770
is very easy just to keep everything and

0:17:03.230,0:17:08.180
because you might need it later on and

0:17:06.770,0:17:10.699
if you happen to be in an environment

0:17:08.180,0:17:12.860
where you have to be able to prove that

0:17:10.699,0:17:14.660
you did something or something happened

0:17:12.860,0:17:17.270
or something was talked about or

0:17:14.660,0:17:19.370
converse keeping that information can be

0:17:17.270,0:17:21.709
valuable well down the road the

0:17:19.370,0:17:23.300
challenge again though becomes how do

0:17:21.709,0:17:25.760
you keep track of all the stuff how do

0:17:23.300,0:17:27.560
you organize all of personally this is

0:17:25.760,0:17:30.230
where I say do as I say not as I do

0:17:27.560,0:17:32.420
I have a very reactionary approach to it

0:17:30.230,0:17:34.910
I have a habit of I keep as much stuff

0:17:32.420,0:17:36.410
as possible because honestly I have

0:17:34.910,0:17:38.990
gotten to the point where I don’t try to

0:17:36.410,0:17:40.910
remember very many things I count on my

0:17:38.990,0:17:42.860
systems to be able to recall and there

0:17:40.910,0:17:45.820
are points where I when the system will

0:17:42.860,0:17:47.710
trip or fail or kick back and

0:17:45.820,0:17:49.360
give me a response that I expect that’s

0:17:47.710,0:17:50.950
when I stop and say okay wait a minute

0:17:49.360,0:17:52.450
got to do some housecleaning here

0:17:50.950,0:17:54.880
there’s you’re too much in it or it’s

0:17:52.450,0:17:58.120
not structured right or my needs have

0:17:54.880,0:18:00.030
changed and the system needs to so is it

0:17:58.120,0:18:02.140
worth doing on a fixed schedule

0:18:00.030,0:18:03.670
absolutely I think everyone should be

0:18:02.140,0:18:05.770
able to establish a fixed schedule at a

0:18:03.670,0:18:08.440
minimum do it around a major milestone

0:18:05.770,0:18:10.390
tax time is a great time to go through

0:18:08.440,0:18:13.000
and and do your digital housecleaning or

0:18:10.390,0:18:14.050
end of the month or end of the year or

0:18:13.000,0:18:16.090
beginning of the school year

0:18:14.050,0:18:19.840
whatever find a milestone to kind of

0:18:16.090,0:18:22.060
reset your system and say okay now I can

0:18:19.840,0:18:24.730
get to the things I’m going to need for

0:18:22.060,0:18:26.770
the next three months six or and at that

0:18:24.730,0:18:28.660
point I’ll go in and look at it and I’m

0:18:26.770,0:18:30.360
sort of struggling here and it’s a

0:18:28.660,0:18:32.980
little bit difficult to say where

0:18:30.360,0:18:35.560
because in the future what what I

0:18:32.980,0:18:38.440
imagine happening is that we will have

0:18:35.560,0:18:42.100
infinite storage so there won’t be a

0:18:38.440,0:18:44.560
need to do any digital housekeeping in

0:18:42.100,0:18:47.230
the sense and in the sense that there’s

0:18:44.560,0:18:49.450
limited space or that we’re trying to

0:18:47.230,0:18:52.000
attract too many things I see the

0:18:49.450,0:18:55.000
problem as being an indexing problem

0:18:52.000,0:18:57.400
that so today sometimes that I do a

0:18:55.000,0:19:00.280
search and I save something and I it’s

0:18:57.400,0:19:02.920
on the edges of my memory and I can

0:19:00.280,0:19:04.480
barely remember what the thing was or

0:19:02.920,0:19:07.390
the key words that brought it up and

0:19:04.480,0:19:09.820
this big fuzzy notion of what it was so

0:19:07.390,0:19:11.920
when I searched for example Evernote I

0:19:09.820,0:19:13.750
searched using certain keywords and

0:19:11.920,0:19:15.940
nothing comes up you know and I get

0:19:13.750,0:19:17.830
manly annoyed because I believe that I

0:19:15.940,0:19:20.020
saved it so I go back out to the

0:19:17.830,0:19:22.240
internet and I do a google search and I

0:19:20.020,0:19:23.680
use slightly different keywords and I go

0:19:22.240,0:19:26.560
back down the same rabbit hole that I

0:19:23.680,0:19:29.560
went down maybe a year ago and voila you

0:19:26.560,0:19:31.450
know there it is so I’ve found it on the

0:19:29.560,0:19:34.060
internet and then I go back to Evernote

0:19:31.450,0:19:36.610
and I realize oh I already saved it so I

0:19:34.060,0:19:38.890
know I have two copies of it so what was

0:19:36.610,0:19:41.020
the problem there the the problem was

0:19:38.890,0:19:42.760
not one of storage because the internet

0:19:41.020,0:19:44.830
between incident and Evernote I have

0:19:42.760,0:19:47.980
enough init storage the problem was that

0:19:44.830,0:19:49.840
I I was unable to retrieve it and that

0:19:47.980,0:19:52.000
probably comes about because I didn’t

0:19:49.840,0:19:54.520
index it the right way when I saved it

0:19:52.000,0:19:55.840
the first time so I’m I’m thinking that

0:19:54.520,0:19:57.820
in the future there will be an infinite

0:19:55.840,0:19:59.590
pool of resources whether it’s on your

0:19:57.820,0:20:01.930
hard drive on on the cloud

0:19:59.590,0:20:03.640
or on the web and they’re all they know

0:20:01.930,0:20:06.850
they’ll all meld into each other and

0:20:03.640,0:20:08.460
create this massive massive source and

0:20:06.850,0:20:11.740
our way of accessing the source

0:20:08.460,0:20:13.360
skillfully won’t be from housekeeping in

0:20:11.740,0:20:16.150
the way that we think of housekeeping

0:20:13.360,0:20:18.430
like decluttering it’ll be from indexing

0:20:16.150,0:20:20.860
so if we index accurately we can find

0:20:18.430,0:20:22.240
anything even if it’s duplicated at

0:20:20.860,0:20:25.060
different points in our system and it’s

0:20:22.240,0:20:27.280
not a problem for me that I have a copy

0:20:25.060,0:20:30.250
and ever North on a copy on the web it’s

0:20:27.280,0:20:32.740
just that the lesson for me is to index

0:20:30.250,0:20:34.240
accurately when I do the original find

0:20:32.740,0:20:37.780
I’m gonna challenge you on this one

0:20:34.240,0:20:40.120
because yes we can index everything we

0:20:37.780,0:20:41.920
save and we can conceptually you could

0:20:40.120,0:20:43.270
save it I mean if I think about my cloud

0:20:41.920,0:20:45.490
accounts right now I’ve probably got

0:20:43.270,0:20:47.440
about four terabytes worth of space

0:20:45.490,0:20:49.690
sitting out in the cloud between various

0:20:47.440,0:20:51.970
accounts so the information I have I can

0:20:49.690,0:20:54.130
absolutely retain every possible where

0:20:51.970,0:20:56.890
I’m gonna challenge it is is some of

0:20:54.130,0:20:59.290
that content worth keeping is there

0:20:56.890,0:21:03.100
value to it and the example I’ll give

0:20:59.290,0:21:05.290
you is do I really need a copy of my

0:21:03.100,0:21:08.050
eyeglass prescription from five years

0:21:05.290,0:21:09.520
ago is there value to that yeah if I sit

0:21:08.050,0:21:11.890
here hard enough I could probably talk

0:21:09.520,0:21:14.770
myself into it but what it really comes

0:21:11.890,0:21:15.460
down to is I’m keeping it just because I

0:21:14.770,0:21:18.610
can

0:21:15.460,0:21:20.980
not because I should not because it does

0:21:18.610,0:21:23.560
me any favors or does delivers me any

0:21:20.980,0:21:25.600
value and that’s where I I push back on

0:21:23.560,0:21:27.790
the cluttering idea and I think we’re a

0:21:25.600,0:21:30.370
hit the term properly it’s mental

0:21:27.790,0:21:32.350
clutter we know this stuff is out there

0:21:30.370,0:21:34.750
we know that we’ve got copies of this

0:21:32.350,0:21:37.180
stuff back so so many versions even

0:21:34.750,0:21:39.010
though we’re not recalling it we still

0:21:37.180,0:21:42.070
know it’s there and we still have that

0:21:39.010,0:21:44.740
kind of mental marker in our brain as to

0:21:42.070,0:21:46.540
this stuff is is out there I don’t know

0:21:44.740,0:21:48.130
of anyone who is just storing stuff out

0:21:46.540,0:21:50.830
there and has no idea that they stored

0:21:48.130,0:21:52.900
it just automatically populating content

0:21:50.830,0:21:55.420
out into the cloud you can trigger that

0:21:52.900,0:21:57.640
I’ve set up stuff like that with IFTTT

0:21:55.420,0:21:59.260
it’s building rules and then go back and

0:21:57.640,0:22:00.850
see that I’ve got these massive

0:21:59.260,0:22:03.340
collections of information that I never

0:22:00.850,0:22:06.190
even looked at and then I go well that’s

0:22:03.340,0:22:08.470
really cool but why do I have this this

0:22:06.190,0:22:09.820
has no value for me could I find it

0:22:08.470,0:22:12.460
again sure I could find it through other

0:22:09.820,0:22:13.180
channels so I’m gonna press back and say

0:22:12.460,0:22:15.340
that

0:22:13.180,0:22:18.270
yes there is it is technically capable

0:22:15.340,0:22:21.910
to keep everything but it’s not valuable

0:22:18.270,0:22:25.690
that goes back to and I agree with what

0:22:21.910,0:22:28.120
you just said 100% it comes to the point

0:22:25.690,0:22:30.730
what that we can every simple as that

0:22:28.120,0:22:34.570
you know they even the cost per terabyte

0:22:30.730,0:22:37.450
so low that you may be able to solve the

0:22:34.570,0:22:42.310
question is one for what purpose and

0:22:37.450,0:22:45.280
second why so and it may be I grew up in

0:22:42.310,0:22:48.460
a house where Paris specifically my dad

0:22:45.280,0:22:50.950
will say anything because you don’t know

0:22:48.460,0:22:53.920
if you may need it tomorrow and you know

0:22:50.950,0:22:56.530
I’m talking from rusty nails to anything

0:22:53.920,0:23:00.010
you guys can say blasting could Mayo

0:22:56.530,0:23:04.030
Hodge or anything there was some point

0:23:00.010,0:23:07.330
that my dad had two massive storage

0:23:04.030,0:23:10.540
units so he could save all that junk

0:23:07.330,0:23:13.180
okay I wish to call it in a different

0:23:10.540,0:23:16.270
way but in what it is I mean is the same

0:23:13.180,0:23:18.730
you know there is yes it may be cheaper

0:23:16.270,0:23:20.500
just it may be simpler just you don’t

0:23:18.730,0:23:23.380
need to go and clean it up once a year

0:23:20.500,0:23:26.170
but at the end of the day it is the same

0:23:23.380,0:23:29.110
kind of we are saving things for the

0:23:26.170,0:23:31.840
moment if we may be needed you know we

0:23:29.110,0:23:34.240
we are not getting and of the physical

0:23:31.840,0:23:35.650
world is much simpler because well there

0:23:34.240,0:23:37.810
is something that at the end of the day

0:23:35.650,0:23:40.600
is going to be in the middle of you know

0:23:37.810,0:23:43.270
your path unless you do as my parents

0:23:40.600,0:23:46.420
and then find a massive storage unit to

0:23:43.270,0:23:48.490
put all that junk but why is that you

0:23:46.420,0:23:50.830
need as you said that prescription from

0:23:48.490,0:23:53.920
five years ago or why do you need all

0:23:50.830,0:23:56.560
these files how much really of this

0:23:53.920,0:23:59.440
reference you need to save or more

0:23:56.560,0:24:02.620
importantly you know how easy will be to

0:23:59.440,0:24:04.690
find it again in case you actually need

0:24:02.620,0:24:07.510
it because the problem is in the same

0:24:04.690,0:24:10.660
way we deal with physical clutter we

0:24:07.510,0:24:12.580
have an incredible amount of data saved

0:24:10.660,0:24:15.280
just because we can

0:24:12.580,0:24:17.770
that’s because we need it not because

0:24:15.280,0:24:20.650
it’s going not because anything else

0:24:17.770,0:24:23.920
other than the fact that we can now if I

0:24:20.650,0:24:26.830
look at my Kindle okay and let’s forget

0:24:23.920,0:24:29.740
about files and I go into kids

0:24:26.830,0:24:31.930
and I go into all the books okay that

0:24:29.740,0:24:34.090
are in my Kindle account it’s not going

0:24:31.930,0:24:37.530
to cause me a penny Amazon will store

0:24:34.090,0:24:40.270
this for me plus I he will store all the

0:24:37.530,0:24:43.750
documents and PDF and stuff that I have

0:24:40.270,0:24:47.230
sent over the years if I got 2006 okay

0:24:43.750,0:24:50.140
so it has ten years of file book how

0:24:47.230,0:24:52.330
many of those I’m going to go back and

0:24:50.140,0:24:55.870
really read I don’t know but a number

0:24:52.330,0:24:58.570
it’s not that so can we argue if that is

0:24:55.870,0:25:01.180
digital clutter or not and I think it is

0:24:58.570,0:25:01.720
you know most of those books I will

0:25:01.180,0:25:04.240
never

0:25:01.720,0:25:06.670
most of those paper I will never access

0:25:04.240,0:25:09.400
them again but they’re there they serve

0:25:06.670,0:25:12.550
no purpose they are just using terabytes

0:25:09.400,0:25:15.670
or or bytes ugly so one of the big

0:25:12.550,0:25:19.300
problems with a digital declawed is two

0:25:15.670,0:25:22.810
things one for the people who love to

0:25:19.300,0:25:24.760
say now they have it’s a reality and a

0:25:22.810,0:25:26.650
possible and a real possibility for them

0:25:24.760,0:25:29.830
to do it and save everything and there

0:25:26.650,0:25:32.590
is nothing right or wrong about saving

0:25:29.830,0:25:37.180
every a my my father to this day if you

0:25:32.590,0:25:39.100
come and say hey I needed to eat and you

0:25:37.180,0:25:41.380
know if you ask for something to my

0:25:39.100,0:25:43.420
parents and he can give it in that mask

0:25:41.380,0:25:45.820
you know he feel proud that he have been

0:25:43.420,0:25:47.710
saving this for 20 years and you see

0:25:45.820,0:25:50.470
what I’m telling you now you can use it

0:25:47.710,0:25:52.420
after 20 years of me saving this and I’m

0:25:50.470,0:25:54.850
looking at him like yeah but I could

0:25:52.420,0:25:58.330
have sold that problem for a dollar on

0:25:54.850,0:26:01.000
the store and not storage disjunct for

0:25:58.330,0:26:04.000
20 years okay and that is the same thing

0:26:01.000,0:26:07.540
how much is worth it to save this

0:26:04.000,0:26:09.520
digital file for 20 years when in 20

0:26:07.540,0:26:12.490
years you will be able to Google and

0:26:09.520,0:26:16.210
find it somewhere else you know I if you

0:26:12.490,0:26:19.000
are from from certain point of age and I

0:26:16.210,0:26:21.640
will argue that age change country to

0:26:19.000,0:26:24.550
country but you know you use to go and

0:26:21.640,0:26:26.530
do research on the library on cannot you

0:26:24.550,0:26:29.290
go and pull the tape pull and use the

0:26:26.530,0:26:33.550
index cards we with America if you have

0:26:29.290,0:26:35.740
many Millennials today what is how they

0:26:33.550,0:26:37.540
research and even you go and tell the

0:26:35.740,0:26:38.980
pay go and take the cyclopædia

0:26:37.540,0:26:40.330
they will look at us or you mean

0:26:38.980,0:26:44.429
Wikipedia they

0:26:40.330,0:26:46.899
understand that so the the Encyclopedia

0:26:44.429,0:26:50.799
Brittanica for example my parents have

0:26:46.899,0:26:55.809
it we have every book of the Britannica

0:26:50.799,0:26:59.140
up to two thousand three or four and it

0:26:55.809,0:27:02.289
was something that many houses have as a

0:26:59.140,0:27:06.279
knowledge the reality is if you showed

0:27:02.289,0:27:08.559
those books to my kids and must of the

0:27:06.279,0:27:11.080
jungle millennial they don’t even have a

0:27:08.559,0:27:13.360
clue what is to even a more sad point

0:27:11.080,0:27:14.950
they don’t even understand why you want

0:27:13.360,0:27:16.899
to try to find information on the

0:27:14.950,0:27:20.380
Britannica when they can bid you on

0:27:16.899,0:27:23.889
Google so we have been saving all these

0:27:20.380,0:27:26.380
things in the digital world but in many

0:27:23.889,0:27:30.010
cases we don’t have a purpose other than

0:27:26.380,0:27:33.460
well if I need it I will find it but I

0:27:30.010,0:27:35.740
argue it is then the Parliament my

0:27:33.460,0:27:38.019
father had when I was a kid okay

0:27:35.740,0:27:40.990
well if I need it I know I can come to

0:27:38.019,0:27:43.210
one of this massive warehouse and I will

0:27:40.990,0:27:45.340
find well the thing think about this

0:27:43.210,0:27:46.870
though I mean we’re talking and I think

0:27:45.340,0:27:49.870
Francis was right on the money with this

0:27:46.870,0:27:51.789
we do have a habit of confusing physical

0:27:49.870,0:27:53.769
decluttering with digital decluttering

0:27:51.789,0:27:57.159
and this whole conversation is driving

0:27:53.769,0:27:58.929
me back to kind of cannibalizing an idea

0:27:57.159,0:28:00.970
that somebody else has put out for a

0:27:58.929,0:28:03.549
different purpose there’s a gentleman by

0:28:00.970,0:28:05.230
the name of Les Stroud who focuses on

0:28:03.549,0:28:06.700
survival techniques and they call them

0:28:05.230,0:28:08.409
the Survivorman but he has this

0:28:06.700,0:28:11.950
technique where it’s an immediate

0:28:08.409,0:28:13.990
assessment of what you’re able to what

0:28:11.950,0:28:15.669
you have around you you have three zone

0:28:13.990,0:28:17.289
what’s immediate what’s on your person

0:28:15.669,0:28:19.059
what’s in your immediate vicinity and

0:28:17.289,0:28:22.000
then what’s outside that if we take that

0:28:19.059,0:28:24.039
same idea and apply that to digital

0:28:22.000,0:28:25.779
content we can work from the outs or

0:28:24.039,0:28:27.970
from the inside out and say okay that

0:28:25.779,0:28:30.760
first circle is everything that’s

0:28:27.970,0:28:33.460
critical to me personal information

0:28:30.760,0:28:35.350
related specifically related to me as an

0:28:33.460,0:28:37.840
individual that’s that first circle and

0:28:35.350,0:28:39.730
how do I handle that set of information

0:28:37.840,0:28:41.919
how do I access it how do I organize it

0:28:39.730,0:28:45.309
what do I need to keep what can go the

0:28:41.919,0:28:47.440
next sphere outside of that is what I’m

0:28:45.309,0:28:49.600
going to call my personal Internet all

0:28:47.440,0:28:52.270
of that information that’s not critical

0:28:49.600,0:28:54.179
to my daily operation but is relevant to

0:28:52.270,0:28:56.220
me articles I’ve kept in

0:28:54.179,0:28:58.860
stupid links that I’ve kept from around

0:28:56.220,0:29:01.200
the web things in Pinterest things that

0:28:58.860,0:29:04.440
I’ve tagged all of that kind of stuff

0:29:01.200,0:29:05.159
that helps me operate but if it were to

0:29:04.440,0:29:07.259
go away

0:29:05.159,0:29:09.240
I could probably survive with the third

0:29:07.259,0:29:12.299
sphere and that outermost one is

0:29:09.240,0:29:14.580
anything I can go fine I don’t have to

0:29:12.299,0:29:17.340
have a copy of it I don’t need it to be

0:29:14.580,0:29:19.950
right at my fingertips but I know I can

0:29:17.340,0:29:23.100
go hunt it down in the Internet at large

0:29:19.950,0:29:24.720
so if we look at it that way I parallel

0:29:23.100,0:29:26.879
what you were saying exactly I gusto

0:29:24.720,0:29:29.009
it’s not if a kid asks me something I

0:29:26.879,0:29:31.080
said go google it go look it up the same

0:29:29.009,0:29:32.549
way I always got told growing up well

0:29:31.080,0:29:34.289
don’t look it up in the library

0:29:32.549,0:29:35.789
go find and I learned how to use the

0:29:34.289,0:29:38.480
card catalog and you learn how to use

0:29:35.789,0:29:40.559
the encyclopedias this this is our

0:29:38.480,0:29:43.169
encyclopedias and part catalog being

0:29:40.559,0:29:45.299
able to put together boolean search

0:29:43.169,0:29:49.080
terms so we’re able to locate relevant

0:29:45.299,0:29:50.789
and valuable content amongst all the

0:29:49.080,0:29:51.330
flotsam and jetsam that’s outside on the

0:29:50.789,0:29:53.220
Internet

0:29:51.330,0:29:54.509
that skill set is the equivalent of

0:29:53.220,0:29:56.249
knowing how to use the Dewey Decimal

0:29:54.509,0:29:58.590
System from our generation but if we

0:29:56.249,0:30:01.409
look at those three spheres and start to

0:29:58.590,0:30:03.360
apply that kind of evaluation to all of

0:30:01.409,0:30:05.909
our content we can say well where can

0:30:03.360,0:30:07.350
what sphere can this thing wind up in is

0:30:05.909,0:30:09.330
it something that I absolutely have to

0:30:07.350,0:30:11.909
be able to get to all the time and maybe

0:30:09.330,0:30:14.009
that five-year-old optometry

0:30:11.909,0:30:15.960
prescription does need to be in that

0:30:14.009,0:30:17.490
innermost sphere maybe it doesn’t maybe

0:30:15.960,0:30:18.869
it can go out of sphere maybe it can

0:30:17.490,0:30:20.460
just be parked someplace and I’ll get to

0:30:18.869,0:30:22.200
it when I need to get to it or maybe

0:30:20.460,0:30:24.809
it’s not something I need at all so

0:30:22.200,0:30:27.690
think about that mindset of I’m gonna

0:30:24.809,0:30:29.519
keep it because I might need it well if

0:30:27.690,0:30:31.710
I’m gonna keep it because I might need

0:30:29.519,0:30:34.139
to access it how could I act could I

0:30:31.710,0:30:35.970
find it again or do I need to keep it in

0:30:34.139,0:30:38.159
a place where I can get to it or does it

0:30:35.970,0:30:42.029
have to be right at my finger I think I

0:30:38.159,0:30:44.340
think there’s a different choice of play

0:30:42.029,0:30:45.869
though and and I reason I think this is

0:30:44.340,0:30:48.119
because I agree with just about

0:30:45.869,0:30:50.519
everything that we’ve said so far I’m

0:30:48.119,0:30:53.039
looking forward and all to put this but

0:30:50.519,0:30:56.480
I’m looking ahead and if I ask myself is

0:30:53.039,0:31:00.990
it worth it for me to go through and

0:30:56.480,0:31:02.970
declutter or purge files file Matt my

0:31:00.990,0:31:05.570
current system personnel saved or

0:31:02.970,0:31:08.029
otherwise or is it easier for me to

0:31:05.570,0:31:10.399
simply add more space

0:31:08.029,0:31:13.460
and add more space and become better at

0:31:10.399,0:31:16.190
at indexing so this is a choice of where

0:31:13.460,0:31:19.519
to put my next 1 hour of effort do I go

0:31:16.190,0:31:21.889
through the files I may not need find

0:31:19.519,0:31:25.809
them make sure I don’t need them delete

0:31:21.889,0:31:29.299
them or do I just become better at

0:31:25.809,0:31:32.210
indexing future files as I add more

0:31:29.299,0:31:34.190
space more free space so that the the

0:31:32.210,0:31:37.009
files that are poorly indexed that I

0:31:34.190,0:31:39.109
currently have the ones that are we’re

0:31:37.009,0:31:41.269
seeing create a problem today because

0:31:39.109,0:31:43.070
they’re on our mind because they are

0:31:41.269,0:31:45.950
they are sort of taking on mental space

0:31:43.070,0:31:48.379
they shrink to point zero zero one

0:31:45.950,0:31:49.820
percent so they go from let’s say 50% of

0:31:48.379,0:31:52.519
our information onto point zero zero

0:31:49.820,0:31:54.589
zero one percent of our information they

0:31:52.519,0:31:57.349
become so infinite it becomes such a

0:31:54.589,0:31:59.330
small sort of percentage of all of our

0:31:57.349,0:32:01.429
information that it’s not worth

0:31:59.330,0:32:03.169
decluttering it in other words we’re

0:32:01.429,0:32:05.659
adding we I think we’re getting to a

0:32:03.169,0:32:08.239
future where adding space so quickly and

0:32:05.659,0:32:10.759
so cheaply and we’re also getting better

0:32:08.239,0:32:13.460
and indexing it doesn’t make sense to go

0:32:10.759,0:32:15.649
back and declutter because the stuff

0:32:13.460,0:32:17.929
that is the clutter is becoming less and

0:32:15.649,0:32:19.549
less and less and less of a problem I’m

0:32:17.929,0:32:22.479
wondering if this isn’t a movement and

0:32:19.549,0:32:26.779
what’s really the skill that we are

0:32:22.479,0:32:28.969
missing right now is um I hate to call

0:32:26.779,0:32:31.700
it a forgetting skill but it’s the skill

0:32:28.969,0:32:34.129
of managing a whole lot more information

0:32:31.700,0:32:37.580
a hundred times than we currently manage

0:32:34.129,0:32:40.190
and forgetting the problem of the point

0:32:37.580,0:32:41.809
zero zero one percent in other words we

0:32:40.190,0:32:44.389
stored it at some point in the past like

0:32:41.809,0:32:46.429
the five-year-old prescription but it’s

0:32:44.389,0:32:48.019
not a problem because it’s a we have

0:32:46.429,0:32:50.149
forgotten that we had it in other words

0:32:48.019,0:32:51.859
it’s not taking up mental energy because

0:32:50.149,0:32:54.190
we’re adding new information so quickly

0:32:51.859,0:32:57.559
someone who did not a play there’s not a

0:32:54.190,0:32:59.690
technique that is evolving where where

0:32:57.559,0:33:02.509
it’s all about where do I spend my next

0:32:59.690,0:33:05.479
hour and whereas paramedics oh isn’t in

0:33:02.509,0:33:07.399
decluttering at all I’m wondering as you

0:33:05.479,0:33:08.599
talk about this Frances if it makes me

0:33:07.399,0:33:10.489
think of several things this

0:33:08.599,0:33:11.779
conversation consider continually takes

0:33:10.489,0:33:14.059
me back to sort of an evolutionary

0:33:11.779,0:33:18.499
biology issue which is that our

0:33:14.059,0:33:21.790
technology is advancing at a clip that

0:33:18.499,0:33:23.110
is so fast today we

0:33:21.790,0:33:27.000
we have new technologies being developed

0:33:23.110,0:33:30.730
you could say by the hour and our brains

0:33:27.000,0:33:32.860
evolved by the millennia you know it

0:33:30.730,0:33:35.640
could take you know hundreds of

0:33:32.860,0:33:39.520
thousands of years for certain types of

0:33:35.640,0:33:42.010
changes to happen for us to reduce and

0:33:39.520,0:33:43.330
control the skills necessary to deal

0:33:42.010,0:33:46.120
with the technology that we’re facing

0:33:43.330,0:33:48.580
today and that’s where I have the the

0:33:46.120,0:33:50.500
biggest challenge I don’t think I’m I’m

0:33:48.580,0:33:52.960
against what you’re talking about it’s

0:33:50.500,0:33:56.020
that I am I struggle with the idea is

0:33:52.960,0:33:59.860
the human race is that is our species

0:33:56.020,0:34:02.470
they are our brains developed enough to

0:33:59.860,0:34:04.510
be able to deal with for example the

0:34:02.470,0:34:08.020
idea of being able to have reference

0:34:04.510,0:34:09.940
material in one conscious area of our

0:34:08.020,0:34:12.510
prefrontal cortex meaning making a

0:34:09.940,0:34:16.120
decision about that reference data and

0:34:12.510,0:34:18.909
doing other prefrontal cortex processing

0:34:16.120,0:34:22.090
at the same time about another piece of

0:34:18.909,0:34:23.560
datum so the the reality is is today

0:34:22.090,0:34:28.080
that’s not possible

0:34:23.560,0:34:31.240
we we then we subrogate the routine of

0:34:28.080,0:34:33.220
thinking about driving to our more

0:34:31.240,0:34:35.860
automatic functions what people will

0:34:33.220,0:34:37.960
consider sort of muscle memory to be

0:34:35.860,0:34:40.540
able to think about oh I want to change

0:34:37.960,0:34:41.669
the station on the radio well those are

0:34:40.540,0:34:44.710
two different parts of your brain

0:34:41.669,0:34:45.520
activated yes that means your brain can

0:34:44.710,0:34:47.230
multitask

0:34:45.520,0:34:50.290
but not in the way we think about it

0:34:47.230,0:34:54.120
right so the idea of being able to index

0:34:50.290,0:34:59.110
a large database of data it continues to

0:34:54.120,0:35:00.940
challenge me in how we as humans deal

0:34:59.110,0:35:02.140
with the fact that technology yes can do

0:35:00.940,0:35:04.510
this very very quickly

0:35:02.140,0:35:07.120
because computers are designed for

0:35:04.510,0:35:09.400
clicking out ones and zeros we are not

0:35:07.120,0:35:12.790
designed that way we are emotional

0:35:09.400,0:35:16.360
creatures first logical creatures second

0:35:12.790,0:35:19.000
and our logical parts are the newest

0:35:16.360,0:35:20.920
parts of our brain and still developing

0:35:19.000,0:35:24.400
you know we are in the potentially the

0:35:20.920,0:35:26.970
infancy of our species if we don’t

0:35:24.400,0:35:31.180
manage to destroy ourselves before

0:35:26.970,0:35:32.500
before we get to our maturity so I you

0:35:31.180,0:35:34.240
know it’s it’s about being able to learn

0:35:32.500,0:35:35.260
the right skills I think you know and I

0:35:34.240,0:35:36.970
think that we can learn

0:35:35.260,0:35:38.890
those right skills but are we at a point

0:35:36.970,0:35:41.710
in our development where those skills

0:35:38.890,0:35:43.960
may not match the technology I although

0:35:41.710,0:35:46.540
I offer this that there are certain

0:35:43.960,0:35:48.609
things you have forgotten about and you

0:35:46.540,0:35:50.560
forgotten they even exist or all of us

0:35:48.609,0:35:52.690
have forgotten about and somewhere on

0:35:50.560,0:35:54.240
our hard drive there is some percentage

0:35:52.690,0:35:57.040
of stuff that we have totally forgotten

0:35:54.240,0:35:58.960
actually exist and I agree that it’s an

0:35:57.040,0:36:00.820
evolutionary it’s a there’s a sort of a

0:35:58.960,0:36:03.070
progression going on where we’re

0:36:00.820,0:36:05.440
probably forgetting about more and more

0:36:03.070,0:36:07.990
as we evolve but it’s not as happening

0:36:05.440,0:36:10.270
as fast as the our ability to add more

0:36:07.990,0:36:12.760
storage as I definitely agree with that

0:36:10.270,0:36:14.340
a personal experience of that but of the

0:36:12.760,0:36:16.780
stuff that you’ve forgotten the

0:36:14.340,0:36:19.180
prescription from five years ago it is

0:36:16.780,0:36:21.850
it worth it to spend an hour to go back

0:36:19.180,0:36:24.640
and find it so that you can then delete

0:36:21.850,0:36:26.290
it I think we all have some information

0:36:24.640,0:36:27.940
that we have forgotten about we don’t

0:36:26.290,0:36:30.100
even know it exists so it’s not taking

0:36:27.940,0:36:32.470
up any psychic space because so long or

0:36:30.100,0:36:34.570
it was so inconsequential or it was

0:36:32.470,0:36:36.220
something we can team add we don’t

0:36:34.570,0:36:37.960
either it is stopped coming to mind at

0:36:36.220,0:36:39.190
all I think there’s a continuum of

0:36:37.960,0:36:41.020
information where there’s some

0:36:39.190,0:36:43.060
information at the very bottom that

0:36:41.020,0:36:45.070
isn’t worth digging up that you might as

0:36:43.060,0:36:47.290
well leave it just because there’s no

0:36:45.070,0:36:49.690
cost it’s being stored so you might as

0:36:47.290,0:36:52.060
well just not bother with it instead

0:36:49.690,0:36:54.760
just focus on adding more space and

0:36:52.060,0:36:56.680
become better indexing no there’s a not

0:36:54.760,0:36:58.840
a piece of information that as you say

0:36:56.680,0:37:01.330
sort of pulls on our mind because it

0:36:58.840,0:37:04.030
nags or attention that does exist which

0:37:01.330,0:37:06.760
is more you do remember about the

0:37:04.030,0:37:09.040
prescription from last year and is it

0:37:06.760,0:37:11.650
worth it to go back and declutter the

0:37:09.040,0:37:14.170
prescription from last year I I’m not

0:37:11.650,0:37:16.180
sure I would almost argue that well why

0:37:14.170,0:37:18.550
not just wait for it wait for your mind

0:37:16.180,0:37:21.520
to forget about it and then you would be

0:37:18.550,0:37:24.250
free so I’m gonna reframe this because

0:37:21.520,0:37:27.369
of the audience I deal with primarily

0:37:24.250,0:37:30.070
being business owners and executives who

0:37:27.369,0:37:33.030
do not separate their business and

0:37:30.070,0:37:37.210
personal hardware they frequently have

0:37:33.030,0:37:38.440
data on their devices that cover both of

0:37:37.210,0:37:39.910
those spheres of their life their

0:37:38.440,0:37:43.750
professional world and their and their

0:37:39.910,0:37:45.430
personal and I usually use the analogy

0:37:43.750,0:37:48.660
of litigation because it is a reality

0:37:45.430,0:37:52.230
for all of us in the business world

0:37:48.660,0:37:54.720
if you are sued and they for some reason

0:37:52.230,0:37:57.960
through a discovery that is electronic

0:37:54.720,0:38:00.450
discovery are able to access your hard

0:37:57.960,0:38:00.930
drives and email clients and cell and so

0:38:00.450,0:38:02.610
forth

0:38:00.930,0:38:05.730
you have now subjected yourself to

0:38:02.610,0:38:08.730
opening that personal part of your life

0:38:05.730,0:38:12.750
to the courts at least to opposing

0:38:08.730,0:38:15.120
counsel and and and so I know that it’s

0:38:12.750,0:38:16.890
a it’s a very different perspective and

0:38:15.120,0:38:20.280
personal life and and I think it’s

0:38:16.890,0:38:23.790
certainly a very limited risk but that

0:38:20.280,0:38:25.680
analogy of if you’re sued do you want to

0:38:23.790,0:38:27.540
have to give up all of your personal

0:38:25.680,0:38:29.760
information to the world that’s the

0:38:27.540,0:38:31.500
argument for going back and it’s not for

0:38:29.760,0:38:33.750
everybody so I agree with you Francis

0:38:31.500,0:38:36.960
for most people you are not at the level

0:38:33.750,0:38:39.150
at which you need to digitally declutter

0:38:36.960,0:38:40.710
for this purpose but I’m just gonna say

0:38:39.150,0:38:43.080
for those of you who are concerned about

0:38:40.710,0:38:45.600
it if you were sued would you want to

0:38:43.080,0:38:48.720
give up that world and then perhaps yes

0:38:45.600,0:38:51.780
it would be a high enough standard to go

0:38:48.720,0:38:53.910
back and purge old data because you just

0:38:51.780,0:38:55.410
don’t want that out there right so

0:38:53.910,0:38:58.080
there’s that that comfort level of

0:38:55.410,0:39:00.360
knowing that I’m consistently purging

0:38:58.080,0:39:03.090
because that detritus is not worth

0:39:00.360,0:39:05.640
having around for someone else to see in

0:39:03.090,0:39:07.080
the future or say if you pass away now

0:39:05.640,0:39:09.600
someone has to gain access to your

0:39:07.080,0:39:13.050
digital world do you want them to see

0:39:09.600,0:39:14.340
all of this garbage along with the stuff

0:39:13.050,0:39:16.650
that’s really important and I think

0:39:14.340,0:39:19.110
that’s the that’s the another sort of

0:39:16.650,0:39:21.750
personal side not business side argument

0:39:19.110,0:39:24.540
for for doing that I want to move the

0:39:21.750,0:39:26.490
conversation toward we recognize many

0:39:24.540,0:39:28.080
different metrics for being able to

0:39:26.490,0:39:30.660
decide what those things are and I think

0:39:28.080,0:39:33.390
art gave one flavor of being able to

0:39:30.660,0:39:35.910
deal with different buckets I tend to

0:39:33.390,0:39:38.910
think about things as assessing the data

0:39:35.910,0:39:41.070
you currently have that is now not

0:39:38.910,0:39:43.380
actionable data therefore majority

0:39:41.070,0:39:45.900
reference then you have what I call sort

0:39:43.380,0:39:47.430
of working memory or genitive items and

0:39:45.900,0:39:50.520
that is that where do you currently

0:39:47.430,0:39:52.380
create data and then finally you need to

0:39:50.520,0:39:54.150
assess where others are currently

0:39:52.380,0:39:56.970
creating data for you which are

0:39:54.150,0:39:59.730
typically inputs spaces that could be

0:39:56.970,0:40:01.560
email inboxes as well as other kinds of

0:39:59.730,0:40:02.440
spaces where your voicemail if you

0:40:01.560,0:40:04.770
receive

0:40:02.440,0:40:07.210
voicemail messages and text messages and

0:40:04.770,0:40:09.670
facebook Messenger and whatsapp and so

0:40:07.210,0:40:11.740
and so forth these input spaces are also

0:40:09.670,0:40:13.569
things that can get cluttered and

0:40:11.740,0:40:16.089
therefore take up storage space for

0:40:13.569,0:40:17.800
example on mobile phones I have clients

0:40:16.089,0:40:21.010
you know we become and they have their

0:40:17.800,0:40:23.410
Apple messages from all existence and

0:40:21.010,0:40:25.150
it’s a huge database and they’re

0:40:23.410,0:40:27.730
wondering why their phone is running

0:40:25.150,0:40:30.220
slowly so being able to purge the back

0:40:27.730,0:40:32.950
data gives them access to more space on

0:40:30.220,0:40:37.329
a limited harddrive so how do we give

0:40:32.950,0:40:39.460
some tools and processes to listeners

0:40:37.329,0:40:41.800
when they want to digitally declutter

0:40:39.460,0:40:44.109
I’m gonna start off with just two pieces

0:40:41.800,0:40:47.109
of information that I think are really

0:40:44.109,0:40:48.790
helpful one is actually in response to

0:40:47.109,0:40:49.990
some of the conversation before that you

0:40:48.790,0:40:52.780
had brought off Francis which I thought

0:40:49.990,0:40:55.089
was which is just sort of in Thai which

0:40:52.780,0:40:57.190
is that I see a movement toward

0:40:55.089,0:40:59.440
especially among professional organizers

0:40:57.190,0:41:01.510
this movement toward minimalism and

0:40:59.440,0:41:03.490
there’s a documentary called minimalism

0:41:01.510,0:41:06.190
and I’ve linked to it in the show notes

0:41:03.490,0:41:09.220
and so they I feel like there’s a

0:41:06.190,0:41:13.839
counter-revolution or maybe it’s just a

0:41:09.220,0:41:17.880
revolution that is because we are and

0:41:13.839,0:41:20.319
have been in America so focused on

0:41:17.880,0:41:22.060
materialism you know capitalism and

0:41:20.319,0:41:24.130
materialism seem to go hand-in-hand I’m

0:41:22.060,0:41:26.710
not quite sure whether that’s totally

0:41:24.130,0:41:29.650
the case but it seems to to be very

0:41:26.710,0:41:33.040
prevalent and and so this minimalism

0:41:29.650,0:41:35.319
concept has really really taken off the

0:41:33.040,0:41:38.770
the second tool that I wanted to offer

0:41:35.319,0:41:40.930
is something called oti EXO and I wonder

0:41:38.770,0:41:43.540
if you gentlemen also use a tool like

0:41:40.930,0:41:46.030
this but oti EXO again I’ve linked to it

0:41:43.540,0:41:48.160
in the show notes is a tool that allows

0:41:46.030,0:41:51.369
you to connect your cloud storage

0:41:48.160,0:41:52.960
services to each other you can move

0:41:51.369,0:41:54.609
things among each other but I actually

0:41:52.960,0:41:57.640
don’t use it for that I use it for the

0:41:54.609,0:42:00.339
ability to search across cloud storage

0:41:57.640,0:42:03.490
so anyone who knows me knows that I use

0:42:00.339,0:42:05.380
Evernote and I use Google products so

0:42:03.490,0:42:07.630
Google Drive is my long-term storage

0:42:05.380,0:42:10.150
Evernote is for that middle ground

0:42:07.630,0:42:12.010
between direct productivity tools where

0:42:10.150,0:42:14.290
I’m using a productivity suite like

0:42:12.010,0:42:16.359
Google Documents where I’m generating

0:42:14.290,0:42:18.579
email where I would obviously

0:42:16.359,0:42:19.900
not use Evernote for email because that

0:42:18.579,0:42:21.789
doesn’t make any sense it’s not an email

0:42:19.900,0:42:23.289
client I wouldn’t use it for as a

0:42:21.789,0:42:26.019
calendar because it’s not a calendar

0:42:23.289,0:42:27.940
software Evernote fits that gap it fills

0:42:26.019,0:42:29.589
in the blanks between that which is a

0:42:27.940,0:42:30.579
specific tool and that which is

0:42:29.589,0:42:33.309
long-term storage

0:42:30.579,0:42:35.230
oti EXO as well as a number of other

0:42:33.309,0:42:38.049
services mult cloud and so forth allow

0:42:35.230,0:42:41.140
you to to search across many different

0:42:38.049,0:42:43.180
cloud storage solutions but the more

0:42:41.140,0:42:47.289
important fact here is that you can then

0:42:43.180,0:42:50.890
streamline the folder structure of your

0:42:47.289,0:42:53.529
systems so I fully advocate having your

0:42:50.890,0:42:57.369
email folders or in the fact in the case

0:42:53.529,0:42:58.989
of Gmail your labels matching the folder

0:42:57.369,0:43:01.809
structure that you have in your life in

0:42:58.989,0:43:04.180
your desktop storage so whether it’s in

0:43:01.809,0:43:06.730
my documents or you know in a directory

0:43:04.180,0:43:08.470
you have on your own in your system your

0:43:06.730,0:43:11.200
cloud storage where that’s Google Drive

0:43:08.470,0:43:14.349
Dropbox or onedrive or otherwise you

0:43:11.200,0:43:15.819
should have the same set of few folders

0:43:14.349,0:43:17.859
at the highest level of the hierarchy

0:43:15.819,0:43:20.140
you can have as many subfolders but the

0:43:17.859,0:43:22.839
fewest folders as you can at that

0:43:20.140,0:43:25.720
highest level and that gives you more

0:43:22.839,0:43:27.400
control over the system that Francis is

0:43:25.720,0:43:28.690
kind of talking about although you can

0:43:27.400,0:43:30.430
still do a lot of digital decluttering

0:43:28.690,0:43:33.309
but I like the idea of being able to

0:43:30.430,0:43:34.089
search across the entire system using

0:43:33.309,0:43:38.289
one tool Oh

0:43:34.089,0:43:40.210
oti XO has a fairly oldish looking it’s

0:43:38.289,0:43:42.190
not a very pretty user interface I’ll

0:43:40.210,0:43:44.920
I’ll admit but it works you can

0:43:42.190,0:43:46.420
generally find what you need across many

0:43:44.920,0:43:49.380
different systems when you’re like oh

0:43:46.420,0:43:52.359
you know what I know I save this PDF

0:43:49.380,0:43:53.710
somewhere where is it and it can it can

0:43:52.359,0:43:55.839
allow you to to go ahead and search

0:43:53.710,0:43:58.359
across those without stop believing in

0:43:55.839,0:44:01.650
folders as the best solution I think

0:43:58.359,0:44:04.180
tagging tagging is is is pretty superior

0:44:01.650,0:44:06.460
Google Drive doesn’t have tagging that’s

0:44:04.180,0:44:09.579
kind of I I agree with you I agree with

0:44:06.460,0:44:12.369
you but I believe yeah I believe in in a

0:44:09.579,0:44:14.499
in a used Universal tagging system that

0:44:12.369,0:44:15.700
should be developed but in but yeah so

0:44:14.499,0:44:20.049
so continue on with your point but

0:44:15.700,0:44:27.400
that’s right maybe fix what you think so

0:44:20.049,0:44:28.690
I don’t know how it’s pronounced always

0:44:27.400,0:44:29.440
spell it out I don’t I don’t know how

0:44:28.690,0:44:31.180
it’s pronounced

0:44:29.440,0:44:33.620
that’s like

0:44:31.180,0:44:35.540
the ultimate solution is not to have

0:44:33.620,0:44:38.030
folders at the highest level is to have

0:44:35.540,0:44:39.470
the right system of tagging at the

0:44:38.030,0:44:41.480
highest level so maybe that’s the next

0:44:39.470,0:44:44.540
generation of ticks oh but that’s that’s

0:44:41.480,0:44:47.480
what would really be the super efficient

0:44:44.540,0:44:50.870
way of of doing it ultimately so you

0:44:47.480,0:44:52.820
answer like my concern and I fully agree

0:44:50.870,0:44:54.680
I mean that’s the reason in something

0:44:52.820,0:44:58.370
like Evernote or other kinds of programs

0:44:54.680,0:45:01.670
I fully support the idea of a tagging

0:44:58.370,0:45:04.450
system over a folder system except that

0:45:01.670,0:45:07.430
the the highest level hierarchy of

0:45:04.450,0:45:10.130
Evernote is a notebook system the

0:45:07.430,0:45:13.400
notebook hierarchy is the primary you

0:45:10.130,0:45:17.630
know structure system and we we all need

0:45:13.400,0:45:21.470
I believe this this kind of separation

0:45:17.630,0:45:23.960
of our worlds I liken this to the to the

0:45:21.470,0:45:26.510
Chinese bagua the concept of the of the

0:45:23.960,0:45:28.490
eight part diagram where you separate

0:45:26.510,0:45:29.720
through your your different parts of

0:45:28.490,0:45:32.900
your life whether that be your health

0:45:29.720,0:45:35.960
and finances and family life and other

0:45:32.900,0:45:38.480
areas of your of your life I think those

0:45:35.960,0:45:40.760
big chunks are really helpful for

0:45:38.480,0:45:43.280
separation and then the connector the

0:45:40.760,0:45:45.920
tag meaning that something can stand to

0:45:43.280,0:45:47.960
different in in one bucket one big

0:45:45.920,0:45:50.030
higher-level bucket but still be tagged

0:45:47.960,0:45:51.250
secondary so since we’ve been using this

0:45:50.030,0:45:53.990
prescription

0:45:51.250,0:45:56.150
throughout the episode prescription

0:45:53.990,0:45:59.780
might go into health although I might

0:45:56.150,0:46:02.840
also tag it with finance because it’s

0:45:59.780,0:46:05.090
associated with me paying a medical bill

0:46:02.840,0:46:07.970
right or it might be associated with

0:46:05.090,0:46:09.980
some other part of my life so if I

0:46:07.970,0:46:11.810
received a medical bill I would tag that

0:46:09.980,0:46:13.850
as finances and maybe put that into my

0:46:11.810,0:46:16.820
health folder and now I’m capable of

0:46:13.850,0:46:19.870
relating it in three dimensions instead

0:46:16.820,0:46:22.580
of just that two-dimensional concept a

0:46:19.870,0:46:25.160
folder is just the primary tag right

0:46:22.580,0:46:27.670
correct correct it’s it’s it’s a it’s a

0:46:25.160,0:46:30.470
primary key right if you want to go in

0:46:27.670,0:46:32.480
evolutionary wise as you made the point

0:46:30.470,0:46:34.820
earlier we’re just used to thinking in

0:46:32.480,0:46:36.440
terms of physical objects and folders

0:46:34.820,0:46:38.240
where we’re not to the point where we

0:46:36.440,0:46:41.090
can tag everything and feel comfortable

0:46:38.240,0:46:43.400
and believe me I mean that in that group

0:46:41.090,0:46:44.240
also I have lots of folders and that

0:46:43.400,0:46:46.070
kind of

0:46:44.240,0:46:49.070
it’s just that in the future you know or

0:46:46.070,0:46:50.600
our kids kids I won’t even think of in

0:46:49.070,0:46:52.070
terms of won’t even think in terms of

0:46:50.600,0:46:53.990
high level folders they’ll think in

0:46:52.070,0:46:56.240
terms of primary tags and they’ll be

0:46:53.990,0:46:58.130
totally comfortable slipping between one

0:46:56.240,0:46:59.540
tag and the next at the primary level

0:46:58.130,0:47:01.460
and they’ll have the same benefit that

0:46:59.540,0:47:03.050
we have they’ll have a bit a greater

0:47:01.460,0:47:05.240
benefit than we have then from using

0:47:03.050,0:47:08.750
folders that’s it’s just an evolutionary

0:47:05.240,0:47:11.630
sort of leftover bit that hasn’t caught

0:47:08.750,0:47:14.240
up yet I think what I want to offer here

0:47:11.630,0:47:17.330
is that remarkably humans are

0:47:14.240,0:47:20.900
ontological powerhouses yet for some

0:47:17.330,0:47:23.900
reason the vestiges of the brain’s

0:47:20.900,0:47:26.630
ability to write stronger neuronal

0:47:23.900,0:47:29.090
pathways that’s what actually is is what

0:47:26.630,0:47:31.100
creates stronger memories and stronger

0:47:29.090,0:47:33.200
ties to things so it’s actually the way

0:47:31.100,0:47:35.450
in which we learn that is the function

0:47:33.200,0:47:38.120
that actually competes with the idea of

0:47:35.450,0:47:39.830
an ontological approach what you’re

0:47:38.120,0:47:42.800
talking about in terms of a taxonomy

0:47:39.830,0:47:46.940
approach to thinking about the world the

0:47:42.800,0:47:50.180
our brains strengthen the ones we use we

0:47:46.940,0:47:53.540
dominate and lend toward the primary key

0:47:50.180,0:47:57.940
always because the more we use it the

0:47:53.540,0:48:02.390
stronger it gets and the brain naturally

0:47:57.940,0:48:04.760
prejudices toward the ones we use so we

0:48:02.390,0:48:06.380
would have to change the way we think

0:48:04.760,0:48:08.660
about things so that we’re able to

0:48:06.380,0:48:10.640
switch gears much more quickly and

0:48:08.660,0:48:13.910
readily to think about all of the

0:48:10.640,0:48:16.520
various options of context I’m gonna

0:48:13.910,0:48:18.770
play the old man Luddite there’s two

0:48:16.520,0:48:20.990
reasons why we will not get away from

0:48:18.770,0:48:22.460
folders any times and yes I’m a big

0:48:20.990,0:48:23.360
advocate of tagging and everything else

0:48:22.460,0:48:24.950
and I think that’s great actually

0:48:23.360,0:48:27.380
there’s three reasons one you’ve already

0:48:24.950,0:48:29.210
said most systems don’t support it one

0:48:27.380,0:48:31.040
drive doesn’t support it Google Drive

0:48:29.210,0:48:34.070
doesn’t so until that becomes a

0:48:31.040,0:48:35.210
ubiquitous capability tagging it is just

0:48:34.070,0:48:37.430
not something that we’re going to be

0:48:35.210,0:48:40.160
doing on a daily basis but second what’s

0:48:37.430,0:48:42.560
the icon that is used to organize things

0:48:40.160,0:48:45.650
in almost all systems from a visual user

0:48:42.560,0:48:47.870
interface it’s a folder and as soon as

0:48:45.650,0:48:49.940
that icon there is pictured there as a

0:48:47.870,0:48:51.470
folder immediately that’s what people

0:48:49.940,0:48:53.990
start thinking of I’m going to put stuff

0:48:51.470,0:48:55.970
in a folder third it’s the contextual

0:48:53.990,0:48:58.100
relationship to the physical world

0:48:55.970,0:48:59.360
around it you go to a file cabinet you

0:48:58.100,0:49:00.110
open the drawer what are in there

0:48:59.360,0:49:01.160
folders

0:49:00.110,0:49:03.440
that’s how you’re thinking about

0:49:01.160,0:49:04.810
organizing physical assets and for

0:49:03.440,0:49:07.100
ninety five percent of the population

0:49:04.810,0:49:09.140
that’s how they’re going to translate it

0:49:07.100,0:49:11.330
to the digital world is that right or

0:49:09.140,0:49:13.370
wrong it’s wrong if you look at it from

0:49:11.330,0:49:15.440
the taxonomy standpoint and all the

0:49:13.370,0:49:17.270
digital recommendations but when it

0:49:15.440,0:49:19.370
comes down to basic human behavior

0:49:17.270,0:49:22.310
people are gonna think about buckets and

0:49:19.370,0:49:24.230
folders and boxes to put things and when

0:49:22.310,0:49:26.120
they can’t find things across those

0:49:24.230,0:49:28.280
buckets and folders and boxes what if

0:49:26.120,0:49:30.410
what do they do they use search so

0:49:28.280,0:49:33.080
between the two of them how do you get

0:49:30.410,0:49:35.000
this stuff organized personally I I can

0:49:33.080,0:49:37.010
live with folders to a certain level I

0:49:35.000,0:49:39.290
mean I have tons of them it’s a way of

0:49:37.010,0:49:41.150
organizing from a higher hierarchical

0:49:39.290,0:49:42.860
structure down through different things

0:49:41.150,0:49:44.420
but there’s two things that you have to

0:49:42.860,0:49:46.730
keep in mind one you can move things

0:49:44.420,0:49:48.800
around from folder to folder and two you

0:49:46.730,0:49:50.810
can rely on things like search to find

0:49:48.800,0:49:53.510
things when you can’t remember what

0:49:50.810,0:49:55.640
folders something it is either one a

0:49:53.510,0:49:58.310
best-case scenario no but then again

0:49:55.640,0:50:00.680
neither is tagging I mean until there’s

0:49:58.310,0:50:02.150
a universal tagging structure and I hate

0:50:00.680,0:50:03.980
to say it ray but we’re never going to

0:50:02.150,0:50:06.800
see that because every time you have a

0:50:03.980,0:50:09.020
standard and you know like the xkcd

0:50:06.800,0:50:11.420
cartoon we’ve got fourteen standards we

0:50:09.020,0:50:13.520
need to define a standard now we have 15

0:50:11.420,0:50:15.470
standard it’ll never be ubiquitous you

0:50:13.520,0:50:17.960
have to define it for yourself whether

0:50:15.470,0:50:20.900
it’s consistent naming convention

0:50:17.960,0:50:22.850
whether it’s file organization structure

0:50:20.900,0:50:24.950
whether it’s relying on search you have

0:50:22.850,0:50:27.380
to think about it how would you go and

0:50:24.950,0:50:29.810
look for that particular asset and then

0:50:27.380,0:50:31.730
put things in those places where you’re

0:50:29.810,0:50:33.140
able to recall them I wish there was an

0:50:31.730,0:50:34.430
easy way to say that this is the

0:50:33.140,0:50:36.950
structure that will work for everybody

0:50:34.430,0:50:38.840
but the only time that applies is in an

0:50:36.950,0:50:40.760
enterprise environment where they can

0:50:38.840,0:50:42.890
fire you for not use daily life you

0:50:40.760,0:50:44.660
can’t fire yourself so you can change

0:50:42.890,0:50:48.680
you can fudge you can move things around

0:50:44.660,0:50:50.330
you can adapt or blow it up the best way

0:50:48.680,0:50:52.610
you can do it is the one that’s going to

0:50:50.330,0:50:54.380
be relative to but I don’t want us to go

0:50:52.610,0:50:56.000
too far down a path of saying hey

0:50:54.380,0:50:57.770
there’s this this real high level

0:50:56.000,0:50:59.720
thinking approach that will solve the

0:50:57.770,0:51:01.430
problem because I think we get people

0:50:59.720,0:51:04.310
off the wrong off the track of saying

0:51:01.430,0:51:06.140
you know what today when you think about

0:51:04.310,0:51:07.940
the things you need to find you need to

0:51:06.140,0:51:09.050
put stuff in places where you’re going

0:51:07.940,0:51:09.630
to be owned if that happens to be

0:51:09.050,0:51:11.849
folders

0:51:09.630,0:51:13.259
the system you’re using then use folded

0:51:11.849,0:51:14.549
I’m not going to judge you right

0:51:13.259,0:51:15.990
especially where there is absence of

0:51:14.549,0:51:18.390
folders I think that’s a that’s

0:51:15.990,0:51:20.910
appropriate what what I what I tend to

0:51:18.390,0:51:24.299
tell people is that most systems have

0:51:20.910,0:51:26.579
some kind of primary container so why

0:51:24.299,0:51:28.230
not make it purposeful that’s what

0:51:26.579,0:51:30.930
that’s my argument is that if you’re

0:51:28.230,0:51:32.789
gonna have notebooks in Evernote or you

0:51:30.930,0:51:35.490
know folders and what onedrive or

0:51:32.789,0:51:38.069
Dropbox are or other other tools then

0:51:35.490,0:51:41.960
then they need to be purposeful and they

0:51:38.069,0:51:45.240
need to be fewer than then more because

0:51:41.960,0:51:47.640
really the more folders you have the

0:51:45.240,0:51:49.259
more time it takes to file things the

0:51:47.640,0:51:51.930
less likely it means that you’re going

0:51:49.259,0:51:53.190
to file them and that means the less

0:51:51.930,0:51:57.210
likely you’re going to be able to find

0:51:53.190,0:51:59.279
them when the the bucket itself is not

0:51:57.210,0:52:01.859
helpful enough with with regard to

0:51:59.279,0:52:03.960
search right so I always search within a

0:52:01.859,0:52:06.150
notebook right I never do a blanket

0:52:03.960,0:52:07.710
search of of Evernote you know that

0:52:06.150,0:52:09.900
doesn’t make any sense to me the idea of

0:52:07.710,0:52:12.990
searching across the entire system

0:52:09.900,0:52:15.630
because well there was a notebook and I

0:52:12.990,0:52:16.799
put it in a category in my world what

0:52:15.630,0:52:19.980
why would it be in another category

0:52:16.799,0:52:23.069
unless I Mis filed it and that gets me

0:52:19.980,0:52:25.529
near 98 to 99 percent accuracy in my

0:52:23.069,0:52:27.569
search well it’s just it’s again when we

0:52:25.529,0:52:29.160
start to look at from a software design

0:52:27.569,0:52:30.779
standpoint and this is where I don’t

0:52:29.160,0:52:32.220
want to criticize anybody about their

0:52:30.779,0:52:34.019
systems but I’m gonna jump up and down

0:52:32.220,0:52:35.940
on software designer consistency of

0:52:34.019,0:52:37.710
functionality one note again is a great

0:52:35.940,0:52:39.779
culprit for this my favorite tool but

0:52:37.710,0:52:42.750
it’s a great culprit cause at the

0:52:39.779,0:52:44.519
desktop level you can have 4050

0:52:42.750,0:52:46.200
notebooks open they’re all individual

0:52:44.519,0:52:48.420
OneNote files and you can search across

0:52:46.200,0:52:50.700
them if you really want to but you can’t

0:52:48.420,0:52:52.529
do that on the web you can have the

0:52:50.700,0:52:55.349
notebooks open but you can’t search

0:52:52.529,0:52:57.569
within them across them so this is a

0:52:55.349,0:53:00.000
behavior that you may practice on the

0:52:57.569,0:53:01.859
desktop but it can’t carry over into the

0:53:00.000,0:53:03.480
alternative platform so you have to

0:53:01.859,0:53:05.579
think about what’s the lowest common

0:53:03.480,0:53:07.829
denominator of me being able to retrieve

0:53:05.579,0:53:10.470
this information in OneNote that usually

0:53:07.829,0:53:12.329
winds up being smaller collections of

0:53:10.470,0:53:14.160
notebooks but the notebooks happen to be

0:53:12.329,0:53:15.509
bigger so you can search within them

0:53:14.160,0:53:17.400
well that slows down things like

0:53:15.509,0:53:19.740
synchronization that’s sort so when we

0:53:17.400,0:53:22.200
talk about software design and we talk

0:53:19.740,0:53:23.460
about recommendations to to software

0:53:22.200,0:53:26.940
developers around product

0:53:23.460,0:53:29.610
tools they have to be thinking about not

0:53:26.940,0:53:32.820
so much what’s the optimal best way

0:53:29.610,0:53:35.430
absolutely build for that but build also

0:53:32.820,0:53:37.140
for the most common way that people are

0:53:35.430,0:53:39.450
going to act interact would take

0:53:37.140,0:53:42.330
something like Trello how do you find a

0:53:39.450,0:53:44.340
comment that’s in a card somewhere

0:53:42.330,0:53:45.900
within a Trello board what’s the process

0:53:44.340,0:53:47.610
for doing that and how does somebody

0:53:45.900,0:53:50.190
interact with and does that tie to

0:53:47.610,0:53:52.470
folder system somewhere else or file

0:53:50.190,0:53:54.900
system someplace else we’ve got to be

0:53:52.470,0:53:57.690
able to help think about that mapping

0:53:54.900,0:54:00.090
and and where those pieces come into

0:53:57.690,0:54:01.560
play but I agree with you I mean this is

0:54:00.090,0:54:04.860
this is one of the most frustrating

0:54:01.560,0:54:08.400
things about productivity is that we

0:54:04.860,0:54:10.860
wind up with these grand ideas as to the

0:54:08.400,0:54:12.660
best way to handle it and then we wind

0:54:10.860,0:54:14.910
up running into walls where the

0:54:12.660,0:54:17.100
technology just won’t allow that to

0:54:14.910,0:54:19.380
occur and it will allow it to concert’

0:54:17.100,0:54:21.600
occur consistently I’ll get all soft box

0:54:19.380,0:54:24.210
no no no I think I think it’s

0:54:21.600,0:54:27.030
appropriate software and designers in

0:54:24.210,0:54:29.550
general are the stewards of our future

0:54:27.030,0:54:32.790
and you know they really need to take

0:54:29.550,0:54:35.010
user design user interface you know

0:54:32.790,0:54:37.500
software engineering to heart because it

0:54:35.010,0:54:40.110
affects so many people and the way in

0:54:37.500,0:54:41.820
which they design that software is going

0:54:40.110,0:54:44.520
to be how we how we engage with our

0:54:41.820,0:54:48.390
world final thoughts before we close out

0:54:44.520,0:54:50.850
it is important agreeing with art to

0:54:48.390,0:54:54.540
remember that there is a clear

0:54:50.850,0:54:56.670
distinction between the adopters and the

0:54:54.540,0:54:59.070
more technology and kind people and the

0:54:56.670,0:55:03.060
ones that are not in the reality both of

0:54:59.070,0:55:05.490
those groups will have digital and files

0:55:03.060,0:55:09.690
and digital clutter is dead you know as

0:55:05.490,0:55:12.510
I was reminded by some but somebody many

0:55:09.690,0:55:15.120
many years ago as I was talking about I

0:55:12.510,0:55:17.910
but only this person told me and said

0:55:15.120,0:55:21.450
well that’s fine and dandy but remember

0:55:17.910,0:55:23.730
that most people who listen to you and

0:55:21.450,0:55:25.560
talk to you and work with you are stuck

0:55:23.730,0:55:27.420
on a Windows machine in all the cases

0:55:25.560,0:55:29.850
because that’s where their day-to-day

0:55:27.420,0:55:32.340
computer is and that’s where they leave

0:55:29.850,0:55:36.280
in the same way you know most people

0:55:32.340,0:55:39.910
what they understand is that same

0:55:36.280,0:55:42.280
um physical folder structure that they

0:55:39.910,0:55:44.500
have seen or they see at work and they

0:55:42.280,0:55:47.320
have seen for many years so the

0:55:44.500,0:55:50.080
challenge you know we all agree that the

0:55:47.320,0:55:53.110
cost has come to zero on or close to

0:55:50.080,0:55:55.660
zero on on what you can ask or what you

0:55:53.110,0:55:58.300
cannot so it would work for you is to

0:55:55.660,0:56:00.640
give that same structure fine just make

0:55:58.300,0:56:03.790
it so resist on the resistance to

0:56:00.640,0:56:06.730
organize and file stuff goes really you

0:56:03.790,0:56:08.890
know as low as possible I remember years

0:56:06.730,0:56:11.260
ago when I read part of the getting

0:56:08.890,0:56:13.870
things done look you know when he talks

0:56:11.260,0:56:16.030
about how closed your file cabinet need

0:56:13.870,0:56:18.160
to be and how much files should be a lot

0:56:16.030,0:56:21.010
Malka and I remember reading that the

0:56:18.160,0:56:23.860
persimmon say interesting and looking

0:56:21.010,0:56:26.760
around my office at that time and even

0:56:23.860,0:56:30.280
my home office you know I could relate

0:56:26.760,0:56:32.680
soon after that we move and then the

0:56:30.280,0:56:35.410
only place to put my file cabinet was

0:56:32.680,0:56:38.230
far from worse fit and what happened was

0:56:35.410,0:56:40.240
immediately my file paper files start

0:56:38.230,0:56:42.790
getting up and getting you know stack

0:56:40.240,0:56:44.980
mostly because that was not now an easy

0:56:42.790,0:56:47.140
thing to do I need to stand up get to

0:56:44.980,0:56:49.240
the pod cabin and find the same and then

0:56:47.140,0:56:51.670
what happened was I stopped so

0:56:49.240,0:56:53.950
eventually I obviously reorganized the

0:56:51.670,0:56:56.200
office so that’s good really get to the

0:56:53.950,0:56:59.080
right point but it happened is still the

0:56:56.200,0:57:01.780
same thing with the digital file if your

0:56:59.080,0:57:04.840
digital system is not easy to access

0:57:01.780,0:57:07.630
simple to remember and with enough

0:57:04.840,0:57:09.610
detail without needed to be cumbersome

0:57:07.630,0:57:11.620
what’s going to happen is you are going

0:57:09.610,0:57:13.960
to sort everything on a file called

0:57:11.620,0:57:16.840
Mitchell analyst but then instead of be

0:57:13.960,0:57:19.360
useful it’s going to be problematic for

0:57:16.840,0:57:21.370
you in the long run that’s one thing we

0:57:19.360,0:57:24.760
can leave everybody with is you should

0:57:21.370,0:57:28.090
never have a folder or a notebook or tag

0:57:24.760,0:57:31.480
called miscellaneous miscellany

0:57:28.090,0:57:34.120
miscellany is the enemy of productivity

0:57:31.480,0:57:37.750
that’s the kitchen junk drawer there you

0:57:34.120,0:57:40.360
go there you go well thank you everybody

0:57:37.750,0:57:42.430
this has been a wonderful productivity

0:57:40.360,0:57:44.560
cast the weekly show of all things

0:57:42.430,0:57:46.870
productivity I’m ray Sydney Smith and

0:57:44.560,0:57:48.490
I’m here with Augusto Pinaud Francis Wade

0:57:46.870,0:57:50.119
and Art Gelwicks thank you guys for

0:57:48.490,0:57:52.249
joining me here on this

0:57:50.119,0:57:54.109
asked thank you very much guys thank you

0:57:52.249,0:57:56.779
thank you here’s to your productive life

0:57:54.109,0:57:58.160
that’s it for this productivity cast the

0:57:56.779,0:58:00.920
weekly show about all things

0:57:58.160,0:58:02.990
productivity with your hosts Ray Sidney-

0:58:00.920,0:58:06.309
Smith and Augusto Pinaud with Francis

0:58:02.990,0:58:06.309
Wade and art Gelwicks

[/read]

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