What Does in Control Mean in GTD?

Voiceover Artist | 00:00

Are you ready to manage your work and personal world better to live a more fulfilling, productive life? Then you’ve come to the right place. Welcome to ProductivityCast, the weekly show about all things personal productivity. Here are your hosts, Ray Sidney-Smith and Augusto Pinaud with Francis Wade and Art Gelwicks.

Raymond Sidney-Smith | 00:19

Welcome back, everybody, to ProductivityCast, the weekly show about all things personal productivity. I’m Ray Sidney-Smith.

Augusto Pinaud | 00:25

And I’m Augusto Pinaud.

Francis Wade | 00:26

I’m Francis Wade.

Art Gelwicks | 00:28

And I’m Art Gelwicks.

Raymond Sidney-Smith | 00:29

Welcome, gentlemen, and welcome to our listeners to this episode. Today, we are going to do some philosophizing, I suppose, and hopefully bringing ourselves from that level down to the practical. We’re going to be talking about control. And what I wanted to do was to preface this with The concept of control and perspective in the Getting Things Done or GTD methodology perspective, which is that that’s where came up to me in the first place. And over the years, it has changed. And so I want to talk about what does control mean to each of us and how do we actually make the concept of control practical even tangible in our own worlds. I’m going to define what David Allen says of control in Getting Things Done in the March 2015 edition, in the appendix, in the glossary of Getting Things Done terms, he actually gives a definition for control And then we’re going to talk a little bit about what, the concept of GTD control is so that we can then define what We think of it as in contrasting terms. 

So he says of control, one of the two key elements of self and organizational management along with perspective. And so that’s what he calls control in the most basic terms. And if we think about it from the concept of control and perspective, control are the steps of the or stages of the workflow going from capturing to clarifying to organizing, reflecting and engaging on the action level of the horizons of focus. That is what he considers control. 

And then as we go up the horizons on the y-axis, we then have projects and so on and so forth going up the horizons. And that’s what he considers perspective. 

So control are the actions that we take on the lowest level of the horizons of focus and everything above that becomes perspective. So kind of thinking of it as looking down at the actionability of the thing above itself. 

So when you’re at the highest level, Horizon 5 purpose and principle You are looking down at the other’s vision, goals, areas of focus and accountability, projects, and actions. So that is the GTD definition. And… We have all probably thought of it as being insufficient in some way, shape or form in our own worlds. And now what I’d like to do is to ask you all, gentlemen. How do you define control? And what is… If I think Art gave a really great example before we started recording, if someone came to you and said, I’m feeling out of control, how do you help them get in control or under control in their life?

Francis Wade | 03:10

So I think David Allen’s definition is basically a process definition. So he’s saying, here are the steps. Or managing tasks. And the ones that really start with capturing and so forth are basically the steps for managing tasks. And I suppose that I’m guessing that what he means by control is that the… Process of managing tasks is in control. Now, that has a very specific meaning in my world. I was trained in part as an industrial engineer. And we love For those of you who know the Leningrad-Stewart charts and control charts, we love the idea of measuring processes so that they stay in control. That’s not practical for most people to be able to use these kind of diagnostic tools. But the way I would advise to answer your question, Reem, someone who tells me that they’re out of control… Is to ask them What do you mean? Because the word control is a psychological object The definition has changed and it varies and there’s no uniform. Understanding of what it means. 

So you have to go to the next step and say, When you say control, the question I would ask is when you say control, What specifically? Symptoms are the ones that you notice and I would imply in real life. Not just in your emotional life, but in The Hard Tensible Life where are those symptoms occurring? Such that you’re led to conclude that you’re feeling out of control. 

So I would immediately go to and I would focus and start to break down their response. Between I’ve mentioned psychological objects like I’m feeling stressed, I’m feeling unhappy, I’m feeling unworthy, I’m feeling lazy. As opposed to I arrive at half of my appointments at least ten minutes late. Okay, there we go. That’s one. That’s a tangible object. We can work with that. What else do you have? Well… I wake up in the middle of the night three times out of the week. With something that I forgot to do. That’s two. All right, that’s another tangible activity. 

So I would look for the tangible symptoms. The things that you can put your finger on, you can touch, you can see. 

And then accumulate those so that we move the conversation from and feeling out of control. Towards And again, in the lingo of industrial engineers is defects. We’re looking for defects. And we’re looking to put them together so that we can say, okay, with these five defects, the root cause of them are Because the truth is, control is a lag indicator. Peely Walter Control is a lag indicator. Comes a lot after. The things that you Did or didn’t do. 

So we’re trying to go all the way back so that When we start to… Figure out what they should do, We’re actually looking at things that they did do or need to do or didn’t do. In tangible reality. 

So that’s how I would tackle it. Said that to me.

Art Gelwicks | 06:21

Control to me is a very… Unlike the industrial… Definition of it. I look at it from the almost the psychological side of it. Control is a perceived state of comfort It’s a lack of stress. It’s a… Point of awareness. Of activity And I think when someone says they are out of control, my first reaction is to ask the question, When do you feel things went out of control. Because I need to know contextually Is this something that is a recurring feeling, which means that it is probably systemic. To a process failure Or is it something that has recently happened, which may be triggered by an environmental response or some external factor that has pushed things off the rails? But control itself like a, can be an extremely negative impact. On work and process and quality of work. Having a sense of control. I don’t know is necessarily an extremely positive thing. It’s basically neutral. You feel like, okay, if I’m in control, I can do… What I need to do. If I’m out of control, I can’t do what I need to do. But at no point are we saying that if I’m in control, I can do better things. I’m just saying that I can do things. 

So to me, I always look at it from the mental aspect of it more than the process one, because The process one I can chase. I mean, I can look at the measures. I can look at the metrics involved and say, OK, this is working. This isn’t this. But that doesn’t necessarily, again, translate to a lack of control. And we’ve all seen it. We’ve had people who have processes that work somewhat. But they feel like they are in control, but we know looking at it, it’s like, no, you’re not. As much as you think you are, you’re careening wildly down the highway. 

So… The subjectivity of that term and the amorphousness of that term makes it difficult to have that initial conversation.

Raymond Sidney-Smith | 08:49

I’ll say that if someone comes to me with an issue where control comes into perspective, I think of immediately well, control over what? So are we talking about people, Things. Emotions, or some other form of abstractions in their world, right? If they don’t feel in control of their productivity, if they don’t feel in control of their projects, if they don’t feel in control of their goals, right? And that’s going to help me lead them in a direction to reframe the question better and so that’s the first thing is that whenever you feel like I’m out of control. 

Well, that could be really fun and exciting. For example, if you get on a roller coaster, you’re not in control. You are out of control and you’re going to be on that roller coaster ride and then you’re going to get to the end and hopefully you had a good time and it was a safe ride. But you didn’t know it was going to be a safe ride. It’s the risk of being out of control that causes that risk. Lucery attitude and the enjoyment, the excitement of being on the ride itself. At the same time, There are folks who don’t appreciate that and don’t particularly like to be in that position. And if people are trying to exert control over people necessarily. Then They’re going to continue to run up against some barriers there. People typically don’t like being controlled. They like being persuaded and influenced. And so that’s a whole other conversation that needs to be happening with that individual. 

So it’s figuring out those pieces for me, as opposed to getting really down into the tactical issues yet, is taking a step back and thinking, okay, is this a big picture conversation or is this a granular in the weeds conversation? I think that David Allen would want you to immediately organize your desk drawer and make sure that you have some level of feeling of tangible control in the immediacy. End. Dr. Covey would tell you, what are your goals? 

You know, what are your goals in life? What are your highest level goals? Aspirations in the world. And once you’ve organized those ideas, then things will start to bucket together and fall into place. And so we have these two polar opposites perspectives in terms of what Control means… And in that sense. For me, I have this middle way, which is that Control for me is just a feeling. It’s nothing more than an abstraction of how I feel in any given moment. And therefore, to gain control over Going back to your point, Francis, I’m always looking at what are the ways in which I can create these lead indicating activities. That are going to always put me in a perspective that’s going to set me up for success. To be in control. To be in that captain and commander position that David Allen talks about in GTD. Lingo. And therefore, I’m capable of being in control because even when things are out of my control. I know how to get back on to control if control is the highway and for some reason the main highway And for some reason, I get it. Off the highway and go get gas and then get lost. Knowing the direction of the main highway to get back onto it. That to me is control. Having an intuitive sense of how to get back to the direction I wanted to be going in. And I think that that’s, for me, what control is.

Francis Wade | 12:18

I just wanted to insert a reference that supports what you’re saying. So there was a popular book, How to Get Control of Your Time in Your Life. It sold 3 million copies back in the 70s. What other luck I have? And I don’t think it would do very well today because… I think we’ve accepted that you can’t control your terror. The way to control your time is to be there. Basically, we’ve advanced as a As the human race, I think we’ve gotten to the point where that notion of whereas it was attractive in the seventies. 

Sounds crazy to me. And the idea that you could somehow have that a mold of determined effort so that you could produce a specific outcome in which you would feel in control, that notion of control doesn’t exist anymore or Only among those who are a little bit off because everyone knows that that’s how life is. 

So I think that the definition of control is like I said before, it’s a psychological object. It’s changed over time. In the productivity world. It’ll change again. When someone uses that language. If they’re serious or if they’re working with someone who’s a coach, you’ve got to take them out of that realm of pure emotion or feeling, as you said, Raye, and bring them down into the world of where we can do something about it. Because by itself it’s Just completely free form.

Art Gelwicks | 13:48

So I’m going to build on Ray’s analogy of the roller coaster because I think it’s really… Salient to what we’re talking about. If you think about getting on a roller coaster, there’s this perceived, you’re creating an artificial sense of lack of control. However, you know in the back of your mind you’re getting into something that has a harness, that has rails, that has walls. And while it may be thrilling for a while, you know, that the greatest likelihood is you are going to come out fine at the other end. Now, Again, that’s an artificial implementation of it. But if we think about that same analogy in just regular activities… A sense of a lack of control can create this cascade failure across not only the thing you’re trying to control, but other things. Because if you don’t feel like you can control one thing, now you’re distracted by that. Other things can get out of control. 

So, How do you restore that sense of control? Well, I’m going to use the same analogy. You need rails. You need the safeguards. You need to have those structures, creating those structures in place. 

So that when you feel like you’re taking that corner too fast, or you’re going up a hill that you can’t see the other side. You know that the rails and the safety harnesses that you’ve put in place R. I can’t say guaranteed, but are extremely likely to get you through this, no matter how bouncy that ride is. And I’ll compare it more specifically to two types of roller coasters. Steel roller coasters and wooden roller coasters. I don’t like wooden roller coasters. It’s just a thing. They’re the old style of wooden roller coaster. And why? Because you spend a lot of time bouncing back and forth. You get shaken and jostled and everything. And that’s just not my thing. Steel roller coasters are smooth. But they’re fast. It’s rapid acceleration up and down, lots of G-forces. But, It’s smooth. And to me, if you think about creating… Processes and mechanisms and devices around you don’t want something that you’re just going to kind of bounce around and hope you’re going to get your way through it. You want something to allow you to accelerate, to allow you to go as quickly as possible without flying off into space. And there are times that you do feel out of control, but that’s that trusted system that we talk about so often. Do you trust your process? Do you trust your capture mechanism? Your weekly review. Do you trust your context? Do you trust your flow states? And if you do… Then that brief period of sense of out of control is recoverable. And that’s where I think things like what When we look at these artificial structures that guys like David have put together, they’re Yeah, that’s fine. But they’re different for everybody. But thinking about that structure, putting rails under what you’re doing, can give you that chance to Lex. But still make it to the end destination.

Augusto Pinaud | 17:14

I agree that Control is more… A feeling that’s something we can Quantify. The issue is… How can you? Repeat consistently. To get back. This feeling, to get this feeling happen to you. In a repeatable way. And I think that’s where the challenge happens.

Raymond Sidney-Smith | 17:40

So let’s get into the tactical. Components here now? 

Like, how do we use control in our everyday lives so that we can be more productive? It’s easy to navel gaze and to think about control in this abstract sense. But there are real things we can do to create a Sense of control? But actually produces real control. 

So going back to Art’s analogy earlier about the rollercoaster ride, If we have… Guardrails and we have safety harnesses. And if we have these other pieces, we can actually take an artificial sense of control and actually create a real… Form of control. And we know how to create physical constraints on things in order to be able to create control. And I liken this frequently to cybersecurity. 

So when we think of cybersecurity, there are two polarities. There’s convenience and on their security. Right. And so the more convenient something is, like if you leave your front door open, it’s really easy to get into your house. However, so is it easy for a criminal to come in and commit larceny. 

So we need to recognize that By locking the door, it creates an inconvenience. You have to have a key. You potentially can lock yourself out of the house and so on and so forth. But the benefits for that is and R Your ability to feel safe and secure. And so with control, I think it’s the same thing. We need to put in more infrastructure, in order to create the systems necessary… But once we do that, we then have the appreciation of the benefits of a sense of control, but a real level of control so that we’re there. 

So I know we have all of these Focus applications now. That block particular applications, they block websites. 

So if you’re if you feel like you get caught up in social media, you can go ahead and install freedom and other tools that will go ahead and stop you from being able to see these sites. It gives you a sense of control because you’re capable of now focusing in on the work you’re supposed to be doing or the work that you want to be doing as opposed to the work that you find yourself caught up in, which is looking at the various social media sites or the news of the day and so on and so forth. What are some of the things you think about when it comes to producing a true sense of control or a true application of control in a productivity way. Perspective.

Francis Wade | 20:20

And I think this is a dicey topic, the way you asked The question makes me think. Because we’re talking About two potential apples and oranges, I think. We have an emotional apple. And a practical orange. And the two don’t necessarily line up. Because you could talk to the most effective. Person. A black belt in productivity. And that person could say, I always feel out of control. But where you actually look at what’s really happening in their life. It’s some rare occurrence. That leads them to think that they are always out of control. Where is the guy in the next cubicle over? 

You know, he can barely get to work on time each day. He keeps everything in his head. He doesn’t write anything down. He’s a real white belt, right? And if you ask him if he’s a good boy, he says, I just run to school every day. They get with you as it comes and he has some way of feeling in control So the feeling of being in control I would put Almost no emphasis on that. Because it’s an emotional result. It’s an emotional result. They come, they go, they change. 

You know, you get tired of it, you start feeling it in a different way. It’s all over the map in terms of what actually causes it. And it may not have any connection to what’s going on in real life. 

So I’d put 2% of my of or focus on the emotional apple of control. And then 98% of all focus on okay, The practical. Activities that are tangible, visible, measurable. And on that side of the ledger, I would say, okay, people who talk about being out of control in that sense. Are you talking about the standard? And they’re talking about a violation of that standard.

Art Gelwicks | 22:14

Or.

Francis Wade | 22:16

Whenever I something approaches the level of violating that standard or it gets close to the standard. In terms of it now a way out of control. Then you become very concerned take the idea of coming to meetings early We will get nervous when… They arrive at the meeting on time. Because their goal is to be five minutes early. 

So there is a standard that they have. And they feel out of control. Or rather, they feel as if they are getting too close to the edge when they’re arriving at too many meetings on time. 

So it’s a standard. They notice that their performance is drifting towards the Lower end of the standard is getting towards the edge. They would say, I think… I need to go for 10 minutes early. 

So that I can accomplish my five-minute standard more readily. So those are practical activities. In that world of practical oranges. 

So i would separate the two and one is lead one is lagging but unfortunately you could do everything right and be amazing and be productive and be all of the above. And still. And we all know people like this. They still talk. All the time about feeling as if they’re out of control. And It’s basis in reality is like, We don’t see it. And It’s just an emotional result like that. Requires Therapy requires mindfulness, meditation. Different. Pools. Emotional Tools not productivity tools.

Raymond Sidney-Smith | 23:55

There are ways in which when we look at this You’re calling them apples and oranges. I just consider them different things. Categories of identification that are going to trigger you to start being aware. For example, If you have an emotional threshold, right? That’s an indicator that if you feel out of control, again, feeling out of control can be exhilarating, It can be anxiety producing and cause worry and debilitating. 

So, emotional. Threshold could be that you’re feeling Hey. Level and a number of incidents of negative emotions. Negative affects, whereby you then decide to do something about it. That might be journaling, That might be researching a therapist to talk to or a psychologist. To be able to start figuring out why you’re constantly feeling a particular way. I don’t have a problem with identifying emotional items. 

And then on the say non-emotive space, we have inputs and outputs. And those can have layers or application of emotions associated with them. There can be emotional resonance in an email that you receive and that’s going to have an impact of some kind on you. But I think of the velocity of impacts more than necessarily the emotional impacts of the inputs and outputs. 

So, for example, if I want to be in control, I know that I need to not send outputs that are of an angry nature. Right. 

So if I’m frustrated with someone, if I’m angry with someone, something that I know I can do tactically is to say, If I have a message to send to someone and I’m angry in the moment, I need to park that email in my drafts and then set an action to come back to it later to look at it. With fresh, clear, non-angry eyes. And that’s going to create an output that is going to be clearer of mind, more balanced, and get me the better outcome. Because if I really do want more control over this person… It’s really influence. And I need to make sure that I’m dealing with them in a way that is appropriate and respectful. And my immediate response emotion right now might be frustration and anger toward that person. But the reality is that that’s not going to get me anywhere. What’s going to get me someplace is to bring them closer to me. For me to understand them better first, then for me to understand where they’re coming from. 

So I’m going to need to re-craft that message to them, that output. So it’s thinking through what are the ways in which you can actually increase control Which, like I said, in most cases when you’re dealing with others is influence and persuasion. How do you deal with that piece in ways that are going to increase your feelings of control. Because at the end of the day, all of these things end up being emotional. 

Like they’re a Maybe you can track it. You can track sense of control, right? You can track how much control you have over something, but it’s I don’t know if it’s really worth it. And I’m curious to you all, do you feel like it’s worth tracking whether or not you have Control. In your productivity in your personal productivity world.

Francis Wade | 27:10

Big strong yes. I track my time, for example. And it Ed. I actually track my sleep because that’s a freebie. In the system that I use, And there’s all kinds of benefits from doing that and having a Fitbit watch and They’re actually paying attention to that. 

So those are simple ways of talking, of addressing issues. Control it’s a strong term but you’re at least thinking in terms of a measurable result. How much do I need? I’ve noticed that I need more sleep nowadays. And as opposed to jumping out of bed which is kind of my normal i’ve always jumped out the bed ready to take on the world. Now, before I jump out of bed, I kind of pause and I say, If I jump out now, would I be fully refreshed or am I jumping out now just because I’m ready to jump as always. And now and again. I kind of go back and get another half an hour. Because the half an hour allows me to wake up being more refreshed. 

So tracking my sleepers helped. And not fucking numbers. But I would. If it were easy, if I had a Fitbit watch, I certainly would. If it took away the job of measuring and telling me every week, look, you got 5% less sleep this week. Is that on purpose or was that a mistake? Or an accident or a lock. Then I would say, wow. I don’t know. I didn’t notice it. I thought I was doing okay. But yeah, I think there’s lots of, that’s just one simple example. I think there’s Lots of different ways. And I think if we’re serious about productivity, We have to… Think about the practical, Control. And not control oppressive management. But control lag noticing where it gets close to a standard that we’ve set for ourselves. 

And then taking actions that are appropriate. When there’s a drift.

Raymond Sidney-Smith | 29:02

It’s interesting because when I… Think about Cracking. I always think of it as perspective. Right. I think of it as the GTD perspective of perspectives. And so I always think of it as being and tracking on a level that is giving me. Oversight over something. 

So Yes, I’m tracking a lot of information on the control level. And so I am tracking in that space. I think that The goal is to think through what’s going to be useful to you in the understanding whether or not you are. Maintaining a level of control that you’re comfortable with. And again, coming back to comfort, coming back to this idea that you have this it’s a vague emotional sense that you are in a place. And time That is… Quote unquote, right. To you. And… I don’t know if there’s a way to say Okay, if I look through the crosshairs, I am right on target when it comes to control. On the respective levels of When I think about where I’m going, goal direction, goal orientation. I can… Pretty clearly tell you whether or not I’m on target. But in the very moment right now, I don’t want to be thinking about that stuff. 

So, on tracking along the way… But only to think about it after the fact in a place and time where I’m able to look at it on a longer horizon. And so I’m very curious how you think about those pieces as you’re tracking on the tactical level. 

And then utilizing that information on the higher levels of your world.

Francis Wade | 30:49

Yeah, and in terms of the tactics, I think this is… This is something we do all the time with old Calling in. Control per se, but you’re in a meeting, and as the meeting near as its end. And its supposed end. At the top of the ower. And you notice that the conversation doesn’t look like it’s going to stop. End time. 

So you’re wondering, okay, is this going to go over or not? And Right there you have a standard. I want the meeting to end on time. Have another meeting. It doesn’t seem as if it’s wrapping up based on the conversations. And you ask yourself, how do I intervene? To, wrap this thing up so that we can end on time. 

So you’re using the immediate information in the moment. You can’t, I mean, you can wait till two weeks later and analyze the data. 

Yeah, but you’re in the moment, so you’re noticing. Or even emotions. When I notice I have emotions, anxious emotions. I have a process that I follow that I learned from Byron Katie. Manage my unwanted thoughts or my whatever feelings I’m having. And. By if that process thing works. Boom. In the moment, there is… Life gives you feedback as to whether or not you’re meeting your standards, so to speak. And when you’re not meeting your standard, you always have the choice in the moment of adjusting So it’s not controlling the total mastery of everything in the moment kind of since it’s more a matter of taking feedback and intervening appropriately. In the moment. I think there may be two different . Control, it’s not control like domination. It’s more like control, information, feedback, and intervention.

Raymond Sidney-Smith | 32:46

So coming to the close of our conversation, any final thoughts for folks in terms of how they can gain greater control. In their own personal productivity worlds, in their own personal productivity systems.

Art Gelwicks | 32:59

Set your rails. When you feel like you’re out of control, by looking at what’s working when you feel you are in control. Because that’s your fallback state. Make notes. Document. Diagram Keep that little folder in your desk. And when things feel like they’re going off the tracks. Grab that folder and look back at it and say, okay, where did this go squirrely? 

And then be able to work from there.

Francis Wade | 33:33

I think of standards. Like I said, I talked about a standard of a certain number of hours of sleep per night. Or a standard of Meetings that end on time. I think the more conscious these people Time to czar. Then the better you’ll be in the moment in terms of noticing when they are about to be And I think that takes another level of reflection because it takes a level of awareness because you’ve got to put them in place. We have all kinds of unconscious standards, but the real power is… In having them be very overt and kind of what I was just saying If you have overt standards, then you’re more likely to know what to do when the violation comes, as opposed to being caught unawares. You actually have pre-thought Here are the steps that I take when this particular standard is exceeded or by a little insomniac.

Raymond Sidney-Smith | 34:29

I agree with both of you in what you’re talking about in terms of creating guardrails and setting some level of standards for yourself. I think that you should put yourself into a coming back to David Allen again, kind of a ready state. For being able to approach these things, though. Many times when we are mired in feeling out of control or not feeling in control, we are thinking from a place of being a victim and or being in a place of being put upon in a lot of ways. 

So you need to get yourself out of that negative space to be able to think expansively, to think about what could be as opposed to what the current state is. That’s difficult for a lot of folks. 

So that may require you sitting down and journaling and getting out some of those negative thoughts. It may be turning on Netflix and watching a comedy special, just getting yourself to laugh, right? There’s a lot of really good stuff that happens from a neurochemistry perspective. 

So you get, you know, some good endorphins and dopamine and all those other fun chemical receptors that are going to make you feel good and then approach the problem. Because if you approach the problem and it’s like, that son of a, you know what, they are doing this to me and I feel really like this and that. You’re just stuck and mired in the ditch. And what you really need to do is get out of the ditch and back on the road and then start thinking through what could be and the possibilities of what are. And that just requires some level of objectivity. 

So I really recommend you get yourself out of that negative mindset. Get yourself back on A positive. Perspective and then think about what is going on. Look to the data. Because many times we are trying to create control from are Emotional space? And we should be looking at it from both the empirical data, but from our intuition, right? Our intuition is our past experience informing our present. And we want to be able to look at those two pieces to be able to say, okay, this is what’s happening as best as I understand it. And objectively, what’s going to move this forward for me. That brings us to the end of our conversation. Thank you, gentlemen. This has been a lot of fun to have a conversation about getting under control. And so while we are at the end of this discussion, the conversation doesn’t have to stop here. If you have a question or a comment about what we’ve discussed during this cast, we obviously didn’t talk about everything that we could about control. 

So there’s lots to discuss. Feel free to visit our episode page on productivitycast.net. They’re on the podcast website at the bottom of each episode page. You can leave comments and questions. If you have If you are there on the episode page, you’ll find our show notes that has links to anything we’ve discussed. 

So you can easily jump to them from there. And it includes a text transcript that you can both read on the page. Just click that little read more link where you can download the PDF and read it offline. If this is your first time with us, feel free to subscribe to the podcast or follow it in Apple language if you’d like to. There are instructions for that on the website as well. Just click on the subscribe tab. If you’ve enjoyed listening to us, feel free to rate and review us in Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, wherever you find your podcast app having the rating and review features. Of course, those compliments motivate us, but more importantly, they help grow our personal productivity listening community. And so thank you for doing that. Thank you for those who have left reviews and we look forward to reading the feedback from others. If you have a topic about personal productivity you’d like us to discuss on a future cast, feel free to visit productivitycast.net forward slash contact. There you can leave a voice recorded message or you can type us a message into the contact form and maybe we’ll feature it on a future episode. I want to express my thanks to Augusto Pinaud, Francis Wade, and Art Gelwix for joining me here on Productivity Cast this and every week. You can learn more about them and their work by visiting productivitycast.net. Click on the about page and you can jump to all of their various places where they are active on the web. I’m Ray Sidney Smith. And on behalf of all of us here at ProductivityCast, here’s to your productive life.

Voiceover Artist | 38:30

That’s it for this episode of Productivity Cast, the weekly show about all things personal productivity, with your hosts, Ray Sidney-Smith and Augusto Pinaud, with Francis Wade and Art Gelwicks.